[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - Reread the posts and try and understand what we are telling you.


You need to change the soil. Which of course is impossible/ or not worth ROI.


Greens can be kept dry because they are only a tenth of an acre.

[Jon Wiggett]

Okay, I have my answer.  Clubs don't believe it is worth spending money on drainage.  Very short sighted if you ask me because I have experienced huge improvements in course conditions with drainage improvements which in turn creted better conditions in summer.  It wasn't as if it cost the earth to replace old drains, scarify fairways much more and slowly insert new drains where needed. 

Ciao

Now, now Sean,

Good drainage is important for good playing conditions but will not make much of a difference to how soggy most UK inland courses are in the winter if the weather is wett-ish. This is the same reason that much of northern America has sub optimal playing conditions Dec-Feb or do you know of a course in the NYC area in great nick in your average January?

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

The difference in NY is that bloody course is closed.  If some courses are playable they may re-open.  By playable I don't mean temporary greens and tees off of tee pads....that is an unplayable course. 

It is astonishing to me that you would argue drainage measures are not worthwhile.  We shall have to agree to disagree on this topic.   

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Not just drainage, watertable, evaporation, soil types, slope and the like.


Having less trees and scrub enhances wind/air circulation and also reduces shade thus allowing what winter sun there is to help, all of which promotes drying. I've read that, where the terrain permits, mowing the first cut of rough shorter in the late autumn, as long grass holds dampness is useful as short grass allows more drying.


Atb

[Ryan Coles]

Okay, I have my answer.  Clubs don't believe it is worth spending money on drainage.  Very short sighted if you ask me because I have experienced huge improvements in course conditions with drainage improvements which in turn creted better conditions in summer.  It wasn't as if it cost the earth to replace old drains, scarify fairways much more and slowly insert new drains where needed. 

Ciao

Sean

Lots of the Clubs are doing all of the above and due to play/compaction do so to only really improve things slightly in summer and stand still in winter.

All of the above really is the proverbial bandaid on a broken leg.

You could have world class drainage at close centres. If your top soil is clay the moisture won't get through (as Jon describes) it will just sit there during an average British winter.

It is not dereliction of duty on the part of clay based courses or defeatism - it is realism/pragmatism about what can and cannot be achieved on a sensible budget. To argue otherwise is just typical golf club member bar talk.

Clubs can afford to sort their greens in a select view cases and this is sensible if the rest of the course is relatively free draining. No one is spending millions sand capping / exchanging the rest of the course though.

[Ryan Coles]

Not just drainage, watertable, evaporation, soil types, slope and the like.


Having less trees and scrub enhances wind/air circulation and also reduces shade thus allowing what winter sun there is to help, all of which promotes drying. I've read that, where the terrain permits, mowing the first cut of rough shorter in the late autumn, as long grass holds dampness is useful as short grass allows more drying.


Atb

Oxfordshire.

Big budget.

Not a tree or scrub on the property.

An absolute bog in winter once away from the tees and greens. 

[Robin_Hiseman]

I've got first hand and current experience of trying to build a course on a UK site with very heavy clay and the issue of drainage is the one which is giving us the most headaches.

Initially, we researched the cost of sand capping, but at circa £2.5 million this was a non starter and would have been a logistical nightmare. We are comprehensively draining the high value areas with a combination of perforated drainage at 8-10 metre centres, catch basins, and kilometres of ditches. To follow, we shall sand slit at 25cm centres perpendicular to the drains to create a criss-cross pattern throughout the fairways. Finally, we shall top dress heavily during the grow in to create as dry a surface as possible.

The intention is to break down the water catchments into very small areas and intercept it at the surface before it can move across the playing areas. We have plenty of slope, so moving the water to a drain is easy.  So long as you can maintain the bridge to the sand and gravel drains then the water will follow the path of least resistance into the drains. The problem is that it only takes a fraction of surface smearing for the drain to be rendered virtually useless. Which is where the problem of worm casts comes in. Sub-surface drainage is initially zero through clay soils in the first few years as the trenching process polishes the walls of the trench. In time, the natural fissures that appear in clay will improve the situation.

It is my hope that our course will close during the winter months, so we can present it to its best advantage during the summer season.

Clay soil is a real pain. It is either much too wet or much too dry. It is also fertile, so the weeds love it. Nobody would choose this soil for a golf course, but choice is not always something you have. Working with clay makes you a much more resourceful architect!

We shall do whatever it takes to make the best of our situation and we have the best course manager in the business to get us there. At the moment though, we are up to our knees in skanky filth!

[Ed Tilley]

Not just drainage, watertable, evaporation, soil types, slope and the like.


Having less trees and scrub enhances wind/air circulation and also reduces shade thus allowing what winter sun there is to help, all of which promotes drying. I've read that, where the terrain permits, mowing the first cut of rough shorter in the late autumn, as long grass holds dampness is useful as short grass allows more drying.


Atb

Oxfordshire.

Big budget.

Not a tree or scrub on the property.

An absolute bog in winter once away from the tees and greens.

As Robin says, clay soil is a real pain. Oxfordshire clay is pretty heavy stuff and not conducive to golf courses - as even the big budget Oxfordshire course shows. There are only a few small areas of better soil in the whole county. Even Frilford Heath has issues with some holes on the blue course that are not on the heathland - 1-4 are a bog in parts at the moment. The blue course doesn't get much play at this time of year as everyone goes on the much dryer Green and Red.

[Niall C]

Robin


With only a couple of weeks to go, that is probably the best post I've read this year. You explain very well the issues and how drainage actually works. With regards your remark about the cost of sandcapping costing c.£2.5m, what is the overall budget for the course ?


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Excellent post Robin. Thank you for posting.

Interesting what Ed says about Frilford. Essentially the best golfing land was used for the first course, the next best land for the second course and what was left for the most recent.........


...........or maybe they chose the worst farming land for the first course, then the next worse farming land etc?!

There's a MacKenzie course in Worcester laid out in the late 1920's for which he was apparently offered two possible sites just a few miles apart. One site on clay, the other on sand. He chose the one on sand. During prolonger rain the clubs website usually says something like 'The course will be opened two hours after the rain has stopped'.


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

I've got first hand and current experience of trying to build a course on a UK site with very heavy clay and the issue of drainage is the one which is giving us the most headaches.

Initially, we researched the cost of sand capping, but at circa £2.5 million this was a non starter and would have been a logistical nightmare. We are comprehensively draining the high value areas with a combination of perforated drainage at 8-10 metre centres, catch basins, and kilometres of ditches. To follow, we shall sand slit at 25cm centres perpendicular to the drains to create a criss-cross pattern throughout the fairways. Finally, we shall top dress heavily during the grow in to create as dry a surface as possible.

The intention is to break down the water catchments into very small areas and intercept it at the surface before it can move across the playing areas. We have plenty of slope, so moving the water to a drain is easy.  So long as you can maintain the bridge to the sand and gravel drains then the water will follow the path of least resistance into the drains. The problem is that it only takes a fraction of surface smearing for the drain to be rendered virtually useless. Which is where the problem of worm casts comes in. Sub-surface drainage is initially zero through clay soils in the first few years as the trenching process polishes the walls of the trench. In time, the natural fissures that appear in clay will improve the situation.

It is my hope that our course will close during the winter months, so we can present it to its best advantage during the summer season.

Clay soil is a real pain. It is either much too wet or much too dry. It is also fertile, so the weeds love it. Nobody would choose this soil for a golf course, but choice is not always something you have. Working with clay makes you a much more resourceful architect!

We shall do whatever it takes to make the best of our situation and we have the best course manager in the business to get us there. At the moment though, we are up to our knees in skanky filth!

Robin this might be worth considering - One of the things I did once was after construction and top soiling I then added 50mm of Sand to the fairways and then rotavated it in at 75mm depth. It is not crazy money 1 cubic metre goes 20 squared metres, so its about £35,000 per fairway. The plusses are it is very much drier, the minus is there is a bit more divot damage like a links course. My gut feeling would be that you get 50% of the benifit of sand capping for 15% of the price.

[Tom Kelly]

It is astonishing to me that you would argue drainage measures are not worthwhile.

Sean,


I haven't seen anybody arguing this.


Adrian, Jon and Robin are correct not matter what you do clay will impeded the water and make life tough and Robin has explained the construction issues very well. Even the best drainage system will need secondary drainage and or the top of the drain lines refreshing after a number of years to make them effective again all at more expense. In reality you are likely to see the effects of the drainage as much if not more during the spring, summer and autumn than through the winter.


I can imagine what Robin is having to deal with having seen a number of likely similar sites in the last few months and they aren't pretty, at one recently a guy had to wade out in his bare feet and a 13 tonne excavator went back in and dug his boots out for him....Seeing an area of stripped clay soil left over the winter months can be quite eye opening to see what the ground has to deal with.


I know first hand that a number of courses that you've complained about in the past are actively looking into and installing drainage but unfortunately drainage is surprisingly expensive and they can't do everything they would like to.


Ryan's quote is in most cases accurate;
"It is not dereliction of duty on the part of clay based courses or defeatism - it is realism/pragmatism"


In all reality golf in the UK is not a 12 month game. I pay my fees as a member for golf during the spring, summer and autumn and anything in the winter is a bonus, that said it does come into my thinking when choosing which club to join whether I'll get much decent winter golf as it is extra value. Paying a green fee in the winter should be with tempered expectations and an eye on where and when you play in order to get decent conditions which is obviously what you do. If a course doesn't drop it's fees to match the course conditions it obviously doesn't need the money and may not want the golf in order to protect the course from more damage in wet conditions.


I think it is unfair to dismiss a course's rankings based on it being wet during December on the shores of a lake in one of the wettest part of the UK though.....I completely agree that drainage is a vital part of any great golf course.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Niall:  Cheers. I'm not privy to the final budget, but 2.5 million would be a significant minor proportion of the overall cost. Our alternative method saves about 1.5 million of this and inputs a large amount of sand into the soil profile. We are committed to adding plenty of sand, but shall do it over a prolonged period, both to satisfy cash flow and the wellbeing of local residents, whom we didn't wish to subject to several thousand sand truck movements in one summer.

Adrian: We have something like this in mind, perhaps spinning out 25mm on the top before seeding. Our agronomic advisor is against blending the sand into the soil though, stating it would basically negate any of the benefit of having the sand in the first place. We did some lab tests to show the infiltration rates and as soon as you mix the sand into the clay topsoil it falls through the floor. We're still batting this back and forward so I shall add your findings to the mix when we meet up in Harrogate next month.

[Niall C]

Did they not mix sand and heavier soil at Kingsbarns ? I'm not sure what the heavier soil was like but imagine that it wasn't quite as heavy as clay but not sure. I always felt that Kingsbarns was grittier than normal links. Of course they shut it down through the winter so I guess less damage gets done.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall:  Cheers. I'm not privy to the final budget, but 2.5 million would be a significant minor proportion of the overall cost. Our alternative method saves about 1.5 million of this and inputs a large amount of sand into the soil profile. We are committed to adding plenty of sand, but shall do it over a prolonged period, both to satisfy cash flow and the wellbeing of local residents, whom we didn't wish to subject to several thousand sand truck movements in one summer.

Adrian: We have something like this in mind, perhaps spinning out 25mm on the top before seeding. Our agronomic advisor is against blending the sand into the soil though, stating it would basically negate any of the benefit of having the sand in the first place. We did some lab tests to show the infiltration rates and as soon as you mix the sand into the clay topsoil it falls through the floor. We're still batting this back and forward so I shall add your findings to the mix when we meet up in Harrogate next month.

Robin: I guess it depends on heaviness of the soil. While it is as wet as it can be it might be worth you popping down and I can show the results. It is not all gold but in general today, the rough (natural soil) is kinda 'your trolley wheels leave marks' on the fairways you could 'drive a tractor, buggy'. If your agronomist is worried about adding 50mm and rotavating to 75mm then add 50mm and rotovate to 65mm or add 75mm and rotavate to 100mm, he should not be too concerned with a 3 to 1 sand/soil mix...unless your soil is really really bad in which case I don't know if there is a nice answer, but clay can easily mess construction up top soil stripping's in particular, it really needs to come off in two sections and never D8/ boxed off if it is very heavy.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Adrian

That's a date! I'll see if I can bring Euan Grant along too. He's down this way mid January.

[Sean_A]

I am not at all sure why folks are getting on my case.  Doc has gone to great lengths to explain why drainage efforts ARE worthwhile...why else do it?  For folks to tell me that most clubs have done what they can in terms of drainage is something I do not believe for a New York minute.  As I said before...I choose to disagree with those who don't believe drainage mitigation is worthwhile.  I have seen courses where drainage work was done and those where it wasn't done...night and day difference.  For all who doubt me...go look at Little Aston's 12th.  The incredible improvement of that boggy area short of the green is money very well spent.  I don't understand the resistance of this crowd, but there are many things I don't understand 

Ciao

[Tom Kelly]

I am not at all sure why folks are getting on my case.  Doc has gone to great lengths to explain why drainage efforts ARE worthwhile...why else do it?  For folks to tell me that most clubs have done what they can in terms of drainage is something I do not believe for a New York minute.  As I said before...I choose to disagree with those who don't believe drainage mitigation is worthwhile.  I have seen courses where drainage work was done and those where it wasn't done...night and day difference.  For all who doubt me...go look at Little Aston's 12th.  The incredible improvement of that boggy area short of the green is money very well spent.  I don't understand the resistance of this crowd, but there are many things I don't understand 

Ciao

Sean,


I don't think there is any resistance, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that extra drainage is a good thing (I sell the stuff...!), but we are trying to say that piped/secondary drainage isn't a cure all when it comes to clay soil and perhaps you could give some courses a little slack as it isn't cheap to install either!

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am not at all sure why folks are getting on my case.  Doc has gone to great lengths to explain why drainage efforts ARE worthwhile...why else do it?  For folks to tell me that most clubs have done what they can in terms of drainage is something I do not believe for a New York minute.  As I said before...I choose to disagree with those who don't believe drainage mitigation is worthwhile.  I have seen courses where drainage work was done and those where it wasn't done...night and day difference.  For all who doubt me...go look at Little Aston's 12th.  The incredible improvement of that boggy area short of the green is money very well spent.  I don't understand the resistance of this crowd, but there are many things I don't understand 

Ciao

Drainage efforts are worthwhile Sean, but it is still hard to beat clay. You could have a gravel pit 100 feet deep but if you fill the bottom and smear the sides 12 inches deep with clay you will have a lake, the water will not get through.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting point, one of many, made in Robin's initial post......that actually installing drainage can cause initial sub-surface drainage issues due to the adverse effect of the polished-off sides of the trenches limiting flow through the natural fissures.


Not that I'm against drainage, indeed a clay sited course where I mostly play has recently purchased there own trenching machine so it'll be fascinating to see how the relative dryness of the course changes over the next few years.


Atb

[Sean_A]

I am not at all sure why folks are getting on my case.  Doc has gone to great lengths to explain why drainage efforts ARE worthwhile...why else do it?  For folks to tell me that most clubs have done what they can in terms of drainage is something I do not believe for a New York minute.  As I said before...I choose to disagree with those who don't believe drainage mitigation is worthwhile.  I have seen courses where drainage work was done and those where it wasn't done...night and day difference.  For all who doubt me...go look at Little Aston's 12th.  The incredible improvement of that boggy area short of the green is money very well spent.  I don't understand the resistance of this crowd, but there are many things I don't understand 

Ciao

Sean,


I don't think there is any resistance, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that extra drainage is a good thing (I sell the stuff...!), but we are trying to say that piped/secondary drainage isn't a cure all when it comes to clay soil and perhaps you could give some courses a little slack as it isn't cheap to install either!

Tom

I never made any claims that drainage is a cure-all!  I only said that if a course is going to be open it should be playable and that a great many courses have not done what they can reasonably do to ease drainage issues.  I fully understand that many courses cannot be a wonderful experience in winter, but given how long winter lasts....if a course is not playable for several months a year when it is charging a green fee...then I see no issue with giving the place a biff.  Its no different than if I were critical about a course which has trees and/or rough detracting from the experience.  I may understand why that is the case, but I don't have to like it or offer a free pass. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I never said that drainage was unimportant, indeed I have always said that it is one of the fundamentals that need to be right. Your posts have given myself and several other posters the impression that you believe it will make a soggy course playable regardless of the soil conditions. Your approach to addressing people who have tried to explain this to be wrong is somewhat surprising bordering on the Mucci-esk even

Good, deep drainage will extend the season when playing conditions are reasonable at the start and end of the season but it will not make a soggy soil firmer in the winter.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that if a course is not in good condition then it is better off closed. But this brings me back to my earlier assertion that golf being a 12 months of the year sport in the UK is a myth in all but the best of winters.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon..see my many comments in this thread below.  I think you are assuming an unreasonable position.

IMO if a course is open in winter then it should be playable in winter.  Given GB&I has a 12 month golfing season, not being in decent nick in the winter is a major drawback directly effecting the fun factor...so of course that would effect my views on the quality of the course.

Sure, if I am paying 25 quid to play joe blow nowhere than fine...I give it a pass.  But I don't see why I shouldn't have very high expectations for a very highly ranked course in a 12 month golf cycle.  Its one thing if extraordinary weather conditions are to blame and quite another if a poor piece of land was chosen and/or sufficient care was not taken for proper drainage.

I fully accept that some courses are blessed with better soil than others...this is a big reason why those clubs are seen to have the best courses regardless of the design...conditions matter much more than the Tree House generally acknowledge.  And if a course in poor nick during winter...which is essentially November through April (half the year!)...that sort of disadvantage is hard to overlook when clubs charge green fees during this period. 

However, if clubs are going to operate 12 months a year, they have to be willing to accept criticism 12 months a year.  It then shouldn't be a surprise if many of the newbies aren't well respected in the rankings.  My only thoughts were that given the sheer number of new courses and the knowledge that rankings are a great marketing tool...why haven't drainage issues been taken more seriously? 

I don't exactly believe that most courses have done what they can to mitigate poor drainage.  Regardless, if a club is open and charging a fee, I am not terribly interested as to why the course is in crap condition.  That is my prerogative as the paying and discerning customer. Give me a decent product in line with the green fee and I won't carp. 

You are missing the point.  I am not saying that joe blow inland course should be as dry as a links...I am saying they could and should be dramatically improved over the long haul. 

And no, I don't turn up at joe blow inland course in winter expecting great conditions....I think you know this.  In fact, I avoid many places in winter because they overcharge given the quality of conditions in winter.

For folks to tell me that most clubs have done what they can in terms of drainage is something I do not believe for a New York minute. 

I never made any claims that drainage is a cure-all!  I only said that if a course is going to be open it should be playable and that a great many courses have not done what they can reasonably do to ease drainage issues.  I fully understand that many courses cannot be a wonderful experience in winter, but given how long winter lasts....if a course is not playable for several months a year when it is charging a green fee...then I see no issue with giving the place a biff.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

sorry but golf is no more a 12 month sport in GB&I than skiing is a 12 month of a year sport in Austria. I do wonder why you cling to the assertion it is when even your own arguments clearly show the case for it not being so.

On the second point of improving courses. As several knowledgeable posters on here have already made clear drainage is not going to solve the problem you lament about yet you persist in stating clubs should improve the condition of their course in winter. How do you imagine this would be possible for the average club whilst not breaking the bank?

I do not believe my above position or any other comments on this thread to be unreasonable and furthermore do not believe it to be unreasonable to expect you to either refute this or respond to the question asked.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

The simple matter of fact is golf is a 12 month game in Britain...see the Huntercombe thread as testament to this fact.  Because some courses can't cope doesn't change this fact.  Because some clubs were shortsighted doesn't change this fact.  Because some courses never had the money to do much about drainage doesn't change this fact.  Clubs open their doors and a lot of people play on all types of grasses all year round. Making that experience better makes sense to me. 

We shall have to agree to disagree that drainage work helps make a course more playable.  I have seen it work first hand, but nevermind 

Clubs should have socked away cash when the times were good.  The shortsighted approach of leaving the coffers empty is now a problem which directly impacts the quality of the product that is presented.  Clubs need to think in terms of 25 years, not the term of the Captain. If clubs don't change their attitude the gap between the have and have nots will grow and people will stay play 12 months a year.

Ciao

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()