[DMoriarty]

Sven,

Was Geoff perhaps talking about the modern understanding the of the cape drive?
________________________________________________

The notion that Tillinghast came up with the Cape Hole concept is pure bunk. Phil is well aware of this. Yet, unsurprisingly, he puts it out there anyway.

CBM and HJW began writing about NGLA's Cape Hole and the hole concept in 1906.  They (and others) thought that the concept was novel, and so far as I know they came up with the name. Whigham provided a detailed explanation of the hole concept in 1909, and Macdonald and Whigham profiled the hole in Golf Illustrated in 1914.  http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi5h.pdf

If past is prologue, Phil will come back with some nonsense about how Tillinghast came up with his concept without ever having heard of CBM's Cape hole, and/or that Tillinghast's is somehow fundamentally different. But these arguments are untenable on their face. 

[Phil Young]

And David, once again you show how you can't read a simple sentence... WHERE in what I wrote did I say that TILLY "came up with the Cape Hole concept?" I didn't and I didn't imply it in any way whatsoever. I gave a published use of the phrase defined by an architect more than 5 years before Mid-Ocean was finished being built. YOU are the one who is "full of bunk."

The design concept of the "Cape hole" preceded Tilly's 1915 definition as well.

By the way, WFW was designed and built AFTER Mid-Ocean yet it had a "Cape hole"... one that certainly DIDN'T fit a "modern definition" either. Maybe the true problem is that some simply want to CHANGE a definition to fit their ideas? 

[DMoriarty]

I've absolutely no interest in discussing anything with you Phil.

I just wanted to give fair warning to readers that your presentation of the history of this hole concept was, as usual, extremely misleading. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Phil:


Not sure why Tillie had to be inserted into the conversation.  The concept, at least in America, has its roots at NGLA.


David:


Even if he is talking about the more modern concept (or definition) of a diagonal carry, doesn't NGLA still enter the conversation? 


Sven

[Phil Young]

Sven, you were the one who stated, "Did anyone else catch Shack noting that the Cape Hole concept basically started at Mid Ocean?" Rather than simply saying that he was wrong or that the concept went back further all I did was give a  quotable example as proof. Nothing else. I did so because I believed that you were agreeing with the statement of his that you were quoting. If that wasn't the case, and I now don't believe it was as can be seen from your mention of NGLA, then I was wrong in how I understood what you seemed to be implying...

 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven, you were the one who stated, "Did anyone else catch Shack noting that the Cape Hole concept basically started at Mid Ocean?" Rather than simply saying that he was wrong or that the concept went back further all I did was give a  quotable example as proof. Nothing else. I did so because I believed that you were agreeing with the statement of his that you were quoting. If that wasn't the case, and I now don't believe it was as can be seen from your mention of NGLA, then I was wrong in how I understood what you seemed to be implying...

Did you think it started with NGLA?  If so, why bring up Tillie?


Sven

[DMoriarty]

David:

Even if he is talking about the more modern concept (or definition) of a diagonal carry, doesn't NGLA still enter the conversation? 

I would think so, Yes.

Not having seen the show I have no idea what he meant, but NGLA's is considered the first so-called Cape Hole.

[Sven Nilsen]

Shack's quote (as best as I can summarize it):


"The Cape Hole pretty much started here at Mid Ocean.  C. B. MacDonald, who was pretty much a fan of template holes, and that's how he sort of sold golf in America."


Later,


"And this is where it all started with the Cape Hole."  While pointing at a screen shot of Mid-Ocean.

[Phil Young]

Sven,

I brought up Tilly because few are aware that he wrote a clear definition of what a Cape hole was and that it was different from what CBM did at NGLA. I've understood that NGLA is the first known Cape hole in America for many years now and was actually quite surprised with what you wrote. By the way, did YOU know that tilly had defined a Cape hole in the manner that he did? Also, why bring up what Geoff is supposed to have stated and not ask a question such as "Didn't he know that CBM designed one at NGLA?"

I think we simply made good efforts to discuss something from very different perspectives... nothing else. Its certainly over for me.

[DMoriarty]

Sven,  If that is what Geoff said then I "pretty much" disagree with him.
_________________________________

AWT's definition of the Cape hole concept was not novel.  Phil's efforts to present it as such is just more of his usual.

It has been discussed in detail before.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

I brought up Tilly because few are aware that he wrote a clear definition of what a Cape hole was and that it was different from what CBM did at NGLA. I've understood that NGLA is the first known Cape hole in America for many years now and was actually quite surprised with what you wrote. By the way, did YOU know that tilly had defined a Cape hole in the manner that he did? Also, why bring up what Geoff is supposed to have stated and not ask a question such as "Didn't he know that CBM designed one at NGLA?"

I think we simply made good efforts to discuss something from very different perspectives... nothing else. Its certainly over for me.

The only reason you'd be surprised at what I wrote is if you thought I didn't know the first Cape Hole was at NGLA.  Thanks for the back-handed insult.


I also happen to think that Geoff knows this as well, yet chose to focus on perhaps the most famous example.  Unfortunately, the words he used were misleading.


Sven


 

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Phil,
Will you be supplying one of those especially colorful overlay drawings from the Scott-Taylor collection to bolster your case, as you did with the Redan canard you attempted to sell us?

[Ronald Montesano]

pass the popcorn...

[John McCarthy]

Phil: 

Is that pamphlet available online?

[Mike_Young]

This is why I hate revisionist history on this site...who care? 
For most of us the most famous Cape hole is Mid Ocean and if that is what most think of when they think Cape hole then that would have been the start of the POPULARITY of the cape hole.  If some guy built one somewhere on  course before without it gaining notoriety then I'm not sure I would call that the start of the Cape hole...

[Ian Andrew]

I'm only asking ... because I don't know.
When was the first at Machrahanish created?
Is that a Cape Hole by play?

[Tommy Naccarato]

Ian,


Originally, back like a long, long time ago when I contemplated going on my month-long sovereign to Scotland in 1996, I thought the same about the 1st at Machrihanish, as I had interest in the hole and its carry, which at the time had me thinking what the definition of a "Cape" was.  Over time, the experts told me I was wrong, that it was about the angle of the green which junted out past the "curving coast" of the body of water.


Still, to this day, I associate these types of hole with or without the junting body to be Cape-type holes, even though the definition is a headland or a promontory which extends itself into and marks a change in the coastline.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tommy:


Go back and read the write-up of the template that David linked to above.  It seems to me that the diagonal nature of the hole is just as important an aspect of the design as the green surrounded by hazards.


But it is the nature of the green that led to the use of the phrase "Cape" for the name of the template.   It is a feature, but not the only one.


Sven

[Howard Riefs]

Updated with segments on Sand Valley, Boy Scouts, penal golf and Copperhead.

[Jeff Bergeron]

Phil,
Will you be supplying one of those especially colorful overlay drawings from the Scott-Taylor collection to bolster your case, as you did with the Redan canard you attempted to sell us?

This is a completely unprofessional comment from a supposed expert. Grow up!

[PCCraig]

Phil,
Will you be supplying one of those especially colorful overlay drawings from the Scott-Taylor collection to bolster your case, as you did with the Redan canard you attempted to sell us?

Ha!

[Howard Riefs]

First post updated with segments on Doak/Forest Dunes and the Ogilvy/Clayton roundtable.

[BHoover]

Unfortunately, in my opinion, GC's Architecture Week has become a thinly veiled (and perhaps not even thinly veiled) marketing campaign for a select few resorts/destinations and modern architects.

I'd much prefer a true debate and discussion of history and a chance to see the work of some lesser known architects as well as the big names. I'd also like to hear more substantive discussion of the interplay between architecture and greenskeeping/turf maintenance.

Instead, it seems to focus way too much on shilling from Matt Ginella for 2-3 select and prominent destinations. 

[BCowan]

Unfortunately, in my opinion, GC's Architecture Week has become a thinly veiled (and perhaps not even thinly veiled) marketing campaign for a select few resorts/destinations and modern architects.

I'd much prefer a true debate and discussion of history and a chance to see the work of some lesser known architects as well as the big names. I'd also like to hear more substantive discussion of the interplay between architecture and greenskeeping/turf maintenance.

Instead, it seems to focus way too much on schilling from Matt Ginella for 2-3 select and prominent destinations.

I agree, I'd like to add that it would be really cool to do a segment on a course like Ravisloe where an individual purchased an architectural significant course (Ross) and the gentlemen doesn't play the game.  He focused his efforts on helping the community.  As means of preserving Golf Architecture for a community.

[DMoriarty]

This is why I hate revisionist history on this site...who care? 
For most of us the most famous Cape hole is Mid Ocean and if that is what most think of when they think Cape hole then that would have been the start of the POPULARITY of the cape hole.  If some guy built one somewhere on  course before without it gaining notoriety then I'm not sure I would call that the start of the Cape hole...

Mike Young, 
I am not sure what you mean by "revisionist history."  If you are referring to Phil Young's latest bit of shameless AWT fluffery, then yes, that most certainly is revisionist history. 

But if you are referring to the actual history of Cape Hole, there is nothing revisionist in pointing out that CBM's Cape at NGLA was his original. Macdonald wasn't "some guy" and the hole wasn't obscure. Rather it was famous, and had been discussed at length in various publications from 1906 on.  Unfortunately the cape green site only survived about a decade (it was changed when the road along the water was built.)  Perhaps Mid-Ocean represented a rebirth of the concept (although not really because other cape holes existed) or perhaps Mid-Ocean represents CBM's most famous surviving example, but NGLA's was certainly his first famous example.
____________________________________________________

Sven,

The diagonal carry off the tee was an important element at NGLA and was also an important element at Mid Ocean, but while it is arguable I am not so sure that a diagonal carry was a necessary element in the Cape concept.   When trying to figure what CBM thought essential to his various concepts I think it makes some sense to consider his version at Lido, since he had somewhat free reign their to create what he wanted.  There was no diagonal carry on the inside of the hole at Lido.  There was somewhat of a diagonal carry on the outside of the hole, although strategically it serves a different purpose.

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