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Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you’ve spent any time on your clubs Green Committee, no doubt you have a story or five to tell.  The forum is a great place to discuss these, but I’ve also learned much from the private messages I’ve personally received.  Winter (it seems) is a good time for humor.  Without an element of truth, humor is humorless.
Enjoy!

Stage 1: Curiosity (90 days in)
“Who is this moron?  Who does he think he is?  Obviously he is just trying to make the course easy.  Who thinks like this?  Why is he even a member, our course is perfect the way it is”.

Stage 2: Universal disgust (The remainder of year 1)
“Can you believe he actually thinks we should remove the Cedars on the corner of #10 that John ‘Speedy’ Smith planted back in 1974”?

If you bring up removing (or God-forbid trimming) any tree...and you are the first to do so, you will be universally lambasted.  Also expect to be banned from the Green Committee for a minimum of three years, more if you used fact and logic to repeatedly back up your reasoning.  Every tree is critical.  Every branch is precious.     


Stage 3: Playing solo (Year 2)
Like a Baby Ruth in the Bushwood pool, everyone you thought was your friend will turn on you for the most part.  If you are on other committees or wish to be, they will be full.  This is called ‘tree shrapnel’.  People that can’t refute the message will always go after the messenger.  Your nickname will be Rod, as in Lightening.

Stage 4: Quiet discussions (Year 3)
Fellow members that thought you were a jerk will slowly start talking again, understanding you are still the same person, BT (before Trees).  They will begin asking you about turf and why such and such area is never in great shape.  They will want to know in detail why you were kicked off the committee.   

Stage 5: The turning tide (The winter of year 3)
The most politically correct will take your ideas and run (well, probably walk)…and (gasp) will take credit for the time and research you put in.  “If you would have said it nicer, people would have accepted it”.  Things will start small.  Obvious trees will be first to go, i.e. exposed roots creating a safety hazard, growing into cart paths, etc.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
I was just at a club that needs to remove 1,000 trees or more.  Is it really going to take three years?

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was just at a club that needs to remove 1,000 trees or more.  Is it really going to take three years?

At least...
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Funny stuff Joe.


Try getting the superintendent fired and you may get your home burned to the ground.



Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 05:22:19 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

Peter Pallotta

Thanks for the laughs, Joe. But I thought for sure there'd be a 6th stage, i.e.

6th Stage - "Full Circle"

In which our protagonist, more experienced now, older, and hardened by the committee battles of the past 3 years, is elected Chair and, finding himself in a washroom stall in the Men's Lounge, overhears two young and recently appointed committee members mumbling in hushed tones as they enter:

"Who is that moron? I mean, okay, he's old and can't play anymore, but what about the rest of us? Can't he see that the course is a pushover?  It's a laughingstock -- so wide and short that any hack can get around under par. We need to plant trees and dozens of them, and some ponds -- and get some new back tees.  But most of all,  we've got to get rid of him!"

"We'll do it, man. Will get it done. Believe me: in 5 years guys like him won't even recognize this place!"

   
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 05:09:04 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was just at a club that needs to remove 1,000 trees or more.  Is it really going to take three years?

Tom,

it depends on the type(s) of tree(s) and the method used. If they are mainly straight growing pines then 4 maybe 5 days tops with the right machinery. If it is a mixture or mainly large deciduous trees then it will be mainly man and chainsaw work so 4 chainsaws would take about 50 days.

Of course you would still have all the stumps to deal with afterwards.

Jon

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sounds like a good reason to belong to a club with a single owner who either (a) dislikes trees on the course himself/herself, or (b) has and relies on the judgment of a GM, head pro and/or superintendent who dislikes trees on the course.

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,


That is probably 300-450k no? I doubt you are working on a classic Joe Lee or re-worked LaFoy...so I would think someone of your stature could more easily get it done. 


I remember three years ago Dunlop White told me something to the effect of, "...once you convince everyone that you are right, the next step is getting all the money to actually get it done".


Peter,


That was funny!  I hope I live long enough to hear that conversation. 


The intent of this post was to induce more funny stories.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

David Royer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Love the thread.  I'm now in my third year as Chairman.  I have been given the moniker of Royer, Royer, the Tree Destroyer.  I see my term coming to end soon. 

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Love the thread.  I'm now in my third year as Chairman.  I have been given the moniker of Royer, Royer, the Tree Destroyer.  I see my term coming to end soon.

Dave, I'm sending you a big box of copper nails for the holidays!!!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Love the thread.  I'm now in my third year as Chairman.  I have been given the moniker of Royer, Royer, the Tree Destroyer.  I see my term coming to end soon.

Dave, I'm sending you a big box of copper nails for the holidays!!!

Maybe along with all the "Best New" awards and "Best Renovation" awards, we should have a "Copper Nail Trophy" for the course which removes the most trees in a year. Sponsored by Stihl....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
...or an Ironman award for most consecutive years on the committee without being kicked off.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

BCowan

Love the thread.  I'm now in my third year as Chairman.  I have been given the moniker of Royer, Royer, the Tree Destroyer.  I see my term coming to end soon.

Dave, I'm sending you a big box of copper nails for the holidays!!!

Maybe along with all the "Best New" awards and "Best Renovation" awards, we should have a "Copper Nail Trophy" for the course which removes the most trees in a year. Sponsored by Stihl....

Should I rename the thread?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61206.msg1453124.html#msg1453124

Brad Treadwell

  • Karma: +0/-0
This hits way too close to home Joe.  We've been at it since 2010 and more seriously over the last two years.  I'm definitely working through the stages and singularly blamed for every tree that is no longer with us (if only I had the power some perceive I do....this would be a lot easier, and we would have unplugged many more - Tom's number of 1000 comes to mind). 

Furthermore, we've successfully pissed off our tree huggers to the point that there is a petition going around proposing an 18 month Moratorium on Tree Removal (for the second year in a row)!  Are we in high school or something?  Petitions?  What Stage does this fall under?

Speaking of that, what "Stage" in this do Board Members that oppose progress and tree removal create a "Tree Removal Policy" to create a bunch of red tape?  Now trees proposed for removal by the Superintendent and Green Committee are wrapped in ribbon and a 30 day member comment period commences.  The Board then takes all the "feedback" and makes the final decision on which ones stay and which ones go based on the following criteria:

Do the trees provide safety for the players?
Are the trees strategically important to the play of any hole?
Do the trees provide an aesthetic benefit?
Do the trees provide screening benefit?
Are the trees causing turf growth issues important from a visual standpoint?

All very subjective questions that cannot be answered by Board or Committee Members or Members.  If only we had a Superintendent, a highly qualified Golf Course Architect, a USGA Section Agronomist, a 2010 Arborcom Study, David Oatis/USGA writings on Tree Management, etc.  Oh yeah, we have all of those!  What does the opposition base their case on?

- if we take those trees out, it will look like a Muni
- it will make the course easier
- people aim at those trees
- they frame the green
- they separate the holes
- they punish bad shots
- they are pretty

If this was in a court of law, the Judge would throw the case out after scolding the anti tree removal group for wasting his/her time.

Ah the thankless job of trying to support your Superintendent, increase turf health, recapture width, strategy, vistas (Brad Klein was right...can't mention the last three because 95% of the people at a club don't get it, but do have an opinion on everything related to the golf course), and overall just improve the club, which in this case in a Golden Age track built on a site that was logged prior to becoming a golf course.

Fortunately, I still have plenty of people to play golf with but fewer that I actually want to spend 4 hours with (and a handful I now refuse to).  I am 0-3 in running for our Board, so the damage has been done, which is fine with me.  Wrapping up year one on our Green Committee, but have one good buddy that has been booted from it twice in the last 5- years.

Joel, yes I did have it out for our last Superintendent, who wasn't interested in taking tree management seriously (I'm in the Northwest, so we have over 3000 80+ year old Doug Firs on our property - still can't understand why he didn't embrace it, especially with Arborcom involved).  Eventually put enough pressure on him that he quit....and our old guard blames me to this day for forcing him out.  If that is truly the case, so be it.  It led to the hiring of a fantastic young Superintendent that has done wonders with our track over the last two years, which has included the removal of about 200 trees, with another 70 on the docket for this winter.  Baby steps.

Anyways, you're not alone Joe!  Thanks for the laugh and the vent.  It was therapeutic.

Advice for those considering joining a golf club....find one that is already gone through all this....might cost you a little more but will save you a lot of time and pain.

Cheers.

Kevin Stark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad --

I hear you. Our entire membership is full of self-designated experts on agronomy and GCA. I've been green chairman at our place for six years now. We've taken out ~500 trees during that time with another 100 to go. We're in Indianapolis with 80-100 year old hardwoods. That will leave us around 1400 trees remaining on 140 acres.

One thing I've found useful is to lean heavily on our golf course master plan. We created ours about eight years ago and it had a three page section about tree removal, tree management, etc. In the drawings of the holes describing the changes to implement, specific trees are identified specifically for removal, along with "thinning" in areas where trees are way too numerous to call out specifically. There are also a couple of paragraphs describing the mass genocide we needed to carry out on specific non-native species. When I took over as chairman, I stated that we had one standing rule and that was that we followed the master plan to the letter. I did that for a number of reasons, one of which is that it provides political cover as that plan was commissioned by an independent committee and was approved by our BOD.

My favorite objection I've heard during that period of time was from one member who declared that ANGC was so great because of all of the trees they had. He got really quiet when I quoted chapter and verse from The Spirit of St. Andrews, showed him pictures of ANGC during its construction, and compared an overhead map of ANGC to our place. I stopped short of discussing how Hootie's plantings have ruined strategic elements there; I figure I'll save that one and use it later if I have to.  :)

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0

Winter is a good time for humor, and tree removal... When I was Grounds Chair I would take note of the "dead or dying" trees that sadly :) had to be removed over the winter. I made it a point to play with a variety of members and would ask:  "what is different about this hole?" Rarely would someone remember the trees we took out. Most notable was a huge willow that hung over a pond on the second hole and dominated the right side of the view from the tee. We took it out over the winter (before it fell into the pond...) and NOBODY noticed!

Our tree removal program started when we had a really strong Grounds Chair (not me, a guy whose brother was on the pro tour,) an excellent new Superintendent, and a mandate from the Board  to improve course conditions. The trees came down, course conditions improved dramatically, and the tree huggers gave up.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0

 the tree huggers gave up.



 Calling bullshit on this part--the tree huggers NEVER give up  ::) [size=78%].[/size]

Brad Treadwell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad --

I hear you. Our entire membership is full of self-designated experts on agronomy and GCA. I've been green chairman at our place for six years now. We've taken out ~500 trees during that time with another 100 to go. We're in Indianapolis with 80-100 year old hardwoods. That will leave us around 1400 trees remaining on 140 acres.

One thing I've found useful is to lean heavily on our golf course master plan. We created ours about eight years ago and it had a three page section about tree removal, tree management, etc. In the drawings of the holes describing the changes to implement, specific trees are identified specifically for removal, along with "thinning" in areas where trees are way too numerous to call out specifically. There are also a couple of paragraphs describing the mass genocide we needed to carry out on specific non-native species. When I took over as chairman, I stated that we had one standing rule and that was that we followed the master plan to the letter. I did that for a number of reasons, one of which is that it provides political cover as that plan was commissioned by an independent committee and was approved by our BOD.

My favorite objection I've heard during that period of time was from one member who declared that ANGC was so great because of all of the trees they had. He got really quiet when I quoted chapter and verse from The Spirit of St. Andrews, showed him pictures of ANGC during its construction, and compared an overhead map of ANGC to our place. I stopped short of discussing how Hootie's plantings have ruined strategic elements there; I figure I'll save that one and use it later if I have to.  :)

Good advice, thanks.  We have a current Master Plan but the politics around the club at the moment make it hard to just follow that, as like you said, we have some vocal anti change people that haven't done the place any favors in positions of influence.

Our Architect and Superintendent will be working this winter on the Tree Management Plan portion of the Golf Course Master Plan, which in theory should help.  Our current Green Committee is great and agrees on the majority of what is important and being discussed.  However the Board is currently as divided as the club in general.  Making progress but not as fast as this impatient person would like!

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0

 the tree huggers gave up.



 Calling bullshit on this part--the tree huggers NEVER give up  ::) [size=78%].[/size]

Fair enough. I'll amend this to say the tree huggers get rolled over and lose. Improving conditions wins the argument for the golfers and the tree huggers influence dwindles.

And let's not forget that many tree huggers actually gain an education and change their position. I know that I used to think our "great separation between holes" was a good thing...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 04:24:08 PM by Bill Brightly »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
OK, now that the thread has taken a turn away from the humor side and onto the reality side, I will offer my $.02.


I think it's fair to say that at most (country) clubs, it is social suicide to take on tree remediation with just a GnG committee's good intentions. You need to "play long ball" and make the decisions under the cover of:

 1. A local USGA rep's report

 2. A report from a well-regarded arborist who comes on-site to do 1) inventory and 2) triage
 3. the recommendation of a retained GCA consultant who has written a 5-10 year "Master Plan"
 4. Your BOD directives

 After that, trees can be addressed in a sequential manner:

 A. Dead and dying trees come down first. Safety issue!!!
 B. Ash trees next to stop spread of Emerald Ash Bore (here in the Midwest, as an example)
 C. Trees that block sunlight on greens or whose roots harm growth
 D. Trees that block sunlight on tee boxes
 E. Trees whose roots are degrading turf quality of FWs

 then, the subtleties....:
 
F. Trees that open up airflow
 G. Trees that open up desired vistas
 H. THEN....trees that can have a strategic impact to play. (Restoring sight-lines, angles, corridors, etc.)

 BUT, also do some transplanting of trees to other areas and some planting of new "trophy specimens" like Oaks and Elms here in the Midwest of the US. Streamline the number of species you have.

 My favorite line has always been, and I think I may have even made this up....: "We are embarking on a long-term trophy tree preservation program so that our specimen trees can be enjoyed by the next generations of members."
Our tree spacing is now so much better than it was 2 years ago. We removed many "under-story" or "sucker" trees that were wedged between specimen trees. They only robbed good trees of nutrients. When they were removed, the [/size]strategic[/size] canopy remained intact.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0

 the tree huggers gave up.



 Calling bullshit on this part--the tree huggers NEVER give up  ::) [size=78%].[/size]

Fair enough. I'll amend this to say the tree huggers get rolled over and lose. Improving conditions wins the argument for the golfers and the tree huggers influence dwindles.

And let's not forget that many tree huggers actually gain an education and change their position. I know that I used to think our "great separation between holes" was a good thing...


I was just joking with you--my success rate wasn't nearly as good as yours.


I agree improved conditions win over most. But the part that always killed me was the guys who bitched the loudest about any tree being removed--and then never even noticing them missing after they've been taken down.


Sometimes you wonder how these guys tie their own shoelaces.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have a friend at a nearby great, classic course. He is a HUGE tree hugger. For years has invited me to a big member guest and I always comment on what a great job the superintendent is doing on tree removal. ;) I stand on a tee with him and say WOW, this is SOOOO much better now and watch him cringe. (Yes, I have a sick sense of humor.) He has slowly "given up" and no longer tries to make the case that "the course is getting too easy." His handicap has not changed in 10 years... I really do believe that once a club truly gets serious about tree management, many tree huggers "get religion" and the remaining ones tend to keep quiet.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Funny stuff Joe.


Try getting the superintendent fired and you may get your home burned to the ground.


Absolutely...politically correct is the way to go
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
1) Has it become easier to sell a tree removal program because some high profile clubs have undergone the change and have happy members as a result?

2) I've been told the root system of a tree is as big as the part you see.  How deep do golf courses go for stump grinding and root removal?  I'm wondering if cutting off the tree above ground will kill it.  If roots somehow stayed alive they could still steal the water.

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