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Patrick_Mucci

The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« on: November 30, 2015, 09:53:26 PM »
at Pine Valley.
 
It's essentially an island green, played from a highly elevated tee at either 220 or 187.
 
At 187, considering the consequences for an errant shot, it's too long for average to good golfers.
 
160 would seem to be reasonable.
 
What say you Archie & Jim ?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 10:02:07 PM »
I wouldn't disagree.


Toughest wind to pick up on the course as well...


Counter argument is that it's the flattest green and the adjacent bunkers are not too bad if you miss into one of them.


I like the 3's to play different distances so making an effort to keep it playing shorter than 3 but still longer than 10 would be my goal. Not sure how easy that would be.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2015, 10:34:31 PM »
Jim,


Agree about diversity in yardage.


160 would seem appropriate

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 10:45:24 PM »
At 160 it'd play close to #10. Usually 9 iron with occasional 8 on #14 compared to 9 iron or wedge on #10. I believe 10 is 150 from that small back pad but significantly less downhill.


I can't help but think that, for me, 14 would become the easiest hole on the course at that yardage...not necessarily a bad thing but it's one of the most difficult from the current back tee right now.

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2015, 08:18:27 AM »
Pat,


I have a photo of the PV scorecard from 1922 when J. Wood Platt won the club championship with an 18 hole score in the mid-70's.


The yardage on 14 was 167 and it was the 17th stroke hole.


What are your thoughts in light of this info?


Cheers, Mike

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2015, 08:25:04 AM »
Mike,
 
Then, I'd go with 170 as the yardage.
 
Jim's club selections at his distances are not the club selections of the mid to higher handicap golfer.
 
170 from that elevation probably plays in the 155-160 range.
 
Given the island nature of the green, that's plenty.

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2015, 09:35:15 AM »
Pat,


JWP must have been some player. Playing with hickories is one thing but the ball was not as lively as today.




Curtis Loop

Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2015, 09:55:43 AM »
In the final match of the Crump Cup in 2014, Michael Muehr and Michael Castleforte both knocked it within 5 feet from what I assume was the back tee. Pretty awesome shots considering the difficulty and situation.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2015, 01:36:36 PM »
Pat,
I assume what you mean is that the regular markers should routinely be placed on the front tee box (167-178 range) and not in the middle tee box that was created along with the back tee box (which i believe was in the early 2000s)? In other words, you're not advocating for the removal of the back (or even middle and back) boxes, which surely serve a good purpose in certain instance for lower handicap players?


Before the new tee boxes were added and the hole would typically play in the 170 range, I found it to be the easiest hole on the course (excepting the absurd encroaching underbrush that would invariably impede your swing or block your shot even if you missed marginally to the middle-back right of the green).


Personally, I like the hole much more at 180-190 as it demands your attention much more. The extreme downhill nature of the hole mitigates the actual distance. Plus, there's a decent chance that on any given day, you will have already played a 167-175 downhill shot to what is effectively an island green on 3. Don't forget that the 3 tee boxes are terraced so the distance effect of going back is somewhat mitigated by the rise in elevation.


I do think they could manage yardages on 3 and 14 in a complimentary way on a day-to-day basis such that if the pin is tucked back left one day on 3, they might give you some relief at 14 in terms where they locate the markers. I know they still do use the front tee box from time to time, so the hole can and does play at the 170 range occasionally.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 10:05:06 AM by SPDB »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2015, 04:49:03 PM »
"Don't raise the bridge, lower the river."


Sounds like you may need a seven wood now, Pat..... ;D

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2015, 08:13:17 PM »
 8) ;D




Wow, synchronicity !   Got my vote too!




Just to qualify above we are talking about the new "championship" tee that was built .
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 08:22:10 AM by archie_struthers »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2015, 11:42:09 PM »

In the final match of the Crump Cup in 2014, Michael Muehr and Michael Castleforte both knocked it within 5 feet from what I assume was the back tee. Pretty awesome shots considering the difficulty and situation.

Curtis,
 
Mike Muehr is a reinstated amateur.
 
They're in a different league.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2015, 11:44:38 PM »
"Don't raise the bridge, lower the river."


Sounds like you may need a seven wood now, Pat..... ;D
 
Archie,
 
I have to confess.
 
I retired my 2-iron and 3-iron this year in favor of a Rescue that I can hit 170 to 210.
 
Without being able to get to my left side, it's definitely helped.
 
As to a 7-wood, when I turn 80. ;D


Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2015, 12:00:22 AM »
Pat,
I assume what you mean is that the regular markers should routinely be placed on the front tee box (167-178 range) and not in the middle tee box that was created along with the back tee box (which i believe was in the early 2000s)? In other words, you're not advocating for the removal of the back (or even middle and back) boxes, which surely serve a good purpose in certain instance for lower handicap players?
 
Yes to the former, not so sure that at 220 it's a good hole.
It's a demanding hole, but, at 220, especially with any breeze, except one at your back, it becomes unreasonably difficult.
 
The 167-178 range seems reasonable.

Before the new tee boxes were added and the hole would typically play in the 170 range, I found it to be the easiest hole on the course (excepting the absurd encroaching underbrush that would invariably impede your swing or block your shot even if you missed marginally to the middle-back right of the green).
 
I like 170.
If you miss it marginally left, short or long you're dead.
It's the ultimate in pass/fail shots.

Personally, I like the hole much more at 180-190 as it demands your attention much more.
The extreme downhill nature of the hole mitigates the actual distance.
 
I don't find that to be the case, plus, I believe that the prevailing wind might be from the west.  With the elevation of that tee, the wind certainly influences the ball in flight.
 
Plus, there's a decent chance that on any given day, you will have already played a 167-175 downhill shot to what is effectively an island green on 3.
 
# 3 plays at 181 from the regular tee, 198 from the back tee.
 
Don't forget that the 3 tee boxes are terraced so the distance effect of going back is somewhat mitigated by the rise in elevation.
 
That's certainly true, but, the degree of mitigation is questionable.
 
Playing from 220 presents a truly intimidating shot.
I'll take # 5 anytime as my margin for error is significantly greater, especially short of the green.


I do think they could manage yardages on 3 and 14 in a complimentary way on a day-to-day basis such that if the pin is tucked back left one day on 3, they might give you some relief at 14 in terms where they locate the markers.
 
Agreed, but, that's not how the card reads nor how the course is rated.
 
I'm with you on complimentary management.
 
I know they still do use the front tee box from time to time, so the whole can and does play at the 170 range occasionally.
 
Oh how I wish it was on the days when I had good rounds going as I walked off the 13th green.
 
# 14 can be a round ruiner is a short time, just ask Rocky.


Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2015, 08:05:58 AM »
By the way, the par 3 yardages in 1922 and 2015

1922

3 184
5 205
10 134
14 167


2015 (reg tees)


3 181
5 219
10 142
14 187

« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 08:12:02 AM by Mike Policano »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2015, 08:17:42 AM »
Pat,


  Rocky can no longer be found on any loop on property. Sadly, he's been let go. I've heard he's finally "worn out his welcome." :'(
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2015, 09:40:10 AM »
Well Patrick for what it is worth I would leave the hole alone. At 187 it is a very good hole, I am unfamiliar with any back tee anymore so I cannot weigh in there. As dumb as this will sound it just " looks right" from 187. If i can hit it with a five iron better players will be coming in with sixes or sevens.
 
What ever happened to you meeting at Galloway or Hidden Creek?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2015, 10:35:30 AM »
Was out there not too long ago and while I didn't play it from the absolute tips (we played from around 185 yards) a fellow competitor played back at 220ish and hit a little knock-down 6I to about 10 feet.  The 7th hole at Lehigh (by Flynn) was modeled after #14 at Pine Valley and is 215-225 yards from the tips to a green set just beyond a stream and 90 feet below the teeing area. Lehigh's is not nearly as penal but plays similar.  At Pine Valley, as long as you don't lose the view of the pond from the back tee, it is just fine.  I will say though that I am not a big fan of staircased tees (don't really care for them on #3 for example). 

Anton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2015, 10:51:06 AM »
The impression I have always had of the 14th was: A- it is a beautiful golf hole with great intimidation / B-It takes a heck of a shot to get on the GIR / C- putting on the green is the easiest part of the conquest because....  It's all about the trip to the green.

At 187 from the member tee, I think it is a very good distance given that the green is rather large and flat, and also the tee is so elevated.  Just my opinion.  I won't venture back to the 220 tees anymore though given the current state of my game.  That shot is out of my bag and has fully retired.  :-[
 
“I've spent most of my life golfing - the rest I've just wasted”

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2015, 06:28:07 PM »
Pat,
This post would be great if there were some pictures for the members not fortunate enough to play Pine Valley. As would every one of your posts about NGLA. JAT.....
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2015, 06:35:46 PM »
What's the true yardage of No. 14? One-hundred-eighty-seven yards playing what taking the elevation drop into account? I've seen the hole during the Crump Cup, but have not played it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2015, 09:11:57 PM »


Rob,

If I knew how to post photos I would, but there are more than an ample number of sites where you can access photos of the 14th hole at PV



Pat,
This post would be great if there were some pictures for the members not fortunate enough to play Pine Valley. As would every one of your posts about NGLA. JAT.....

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2015, 09:28:50 AM »
Patrick raise the matter at the next AGM, if you are a member, if not feel privileged to be able to play there. What happens at private clubs is nothing to do with guests.
Cave Nil Vino

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2015, 11:51:39 AM »
Patrick raise the matter at the next AGM, if you are a member, if not feel privileged to be able to play there. What happens at private clubs is nothing to do with guests.


In fairness to my fellow Domer, while also acknowledging your point about respecting any invitations we receive to play courses of historical significance, limiting ourselves to comments about avenues of improvement at courses at which we have have legally established skin in the game (membership, repeated play through daily fees, etc.) would detract from the quality of our conversations.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The 14th hole needs to be shortened
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2015, 02:25:27 PM »

Well Patrick for what it is worth I would leave the hole alone. At 187 it is a very good hole, I am unfamiliar with any back tee anymore so I cannot weigh in there. As dumb as this will sound it just " looks right" from 187. If i can hit it with a five iron better players will be coming in with sixes or sevens.
 
I'll stand on that tee all day, at 187 and bet everyone that comes through, on hitting that green, on the first attempt, and all subsequent attempts, without the luxury of them having to surrender by using the drop area.

What ever happened to you meeting at Galloway or Hidden Creek? 
 
Work got in the way.
 
Plus, there's a lot of work involved in organizing these events and getting guest speakers who will attract a wide variety of enthusiasts, to alter their schedules to attend.