The Lytham Rail Line

[Sean_A]

Nobody has ever detailed to me in a convincing fashion why Lytham is so great...and nothing I have seen leads me to believe Lytham is great.  Like Chez Wardo suggests, Formby is a clear step above Lytham, but I don't currently see Formby as any higher than a 7.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Ward,

have you played RLSA?

[David Davis]

Sean,


Have you played Lytham? I'm surprised by your assessment I think. Sure it can easily be argued the bunkering is overdone however, the routing on a rather small cozy property is really good. The land for golf is excellent, there is a great mix of holes, long short, varying in direction with the wind. Sure it's a tough course, especially if you are off given the bunkering, in fact it would be tough still if you took away 150 bunkers and it might not be the kind of course you want to play every single day but for me personally it ticks most if not all the boxes required to make it a great course.


1. Great variation in holes.
2. Great turf.
3. Excellent routing given the space available.
4. Great undulating land for links golf.
5. Full of strategy and choices.
6. Ability to utilize the ground game - fast and firm.
7. Excellent greens and surrounds.


For me the only real critique available would be the sheer number of bunkers.


However, back to Mike's initial statement about the tree cover blocking out the railroad lines. I know the opinions on this are mixed. I understand his point from a historical sense. I personally am not sure as I'm not a huge fan of freeways/train lines etc running too close to courses. The hole in discussion here I feel like I might enjoy the look better without the trees but I know many of the members don't want to see the railroad lines there.


It's one of the these classic types of preference differences where half is for and half is against I'm afraid.


However, in terms of the course I certainly believe it belongs in the World Top 100 and also feel it's much stronger than Formby, though not as quirky. I do like Formby as well. I'd probably give it a 6 personally, but it certainly could attain a 7 for me with a little work and I wish I could of seen the holes they lost.

[MCirba]

I like that Lytham breaks all the rules and forces the player to deal with it.   One is a par three, so be it.   2, 3, and 7 are threading a minefield, Can't make the corner on 6 to see your second shot over the giant bunker, tough tatties, 8 is not only a blind approach but the green is a turtle-back with the deepest bunker on the course front left.   9 pinches your butt with 9 bunkers around the green.   There is no clear line for driving on 10, or 16 for that matter.   12 is consistently the toughest par three on the rota, 17 features a blind approach over waste and bunkers to an angled green, there is a thimble of room to drive safely on 18 and the back of the green is almost inside the den.   

Get over it. 

[Pete_Pittock]

I posted this opinion on another thread and do not serve it up as a manifesto but another perspective for discussion both ways.  It does not make RLSA a "bad" golf course mostly one I don't see the charm of. The other course  i reference is Victoria National.

"At least it  has the above going for it as opposed to  a place that is just boorishly hard. After attending the Walker Cup at Lytham my thoughts turned to playing that course made so hard and awkward by the repeatative appearance of 200+ plus nasty bad lie bunkers. It is not nearly as well turned as VN and imagine playing there 3plus times a week and suffering 8-to 10 impossible minimum one stroke penalty bunker shots week in and week out. I want to start a thread on this topic later."

So is it fair to say that for some RLSA over relies on punitive bunkers for its defining character? That the final set holes largely lack character being very flat platforms with extreme bunkering and the home particularly pedestrian ? It is arguably a  links like course as it is not remotely near the water so no style points there. And this may be irrelevant but also may support that last stmnt. Talking to a member he offered that holding a major tourney was not an imposition as it had occasioned extensive improvement schemes primarily for drainage as in the winters past fairways and bunkers held so much standing water that locals pushed casual water relief to the fullest and relief was taken from waterlogged bunkers with no penalty.

So I see you guys are fans; help me out. BTW I LIKE seeing all the stuff rather than the trees along the RR Lines and I saw several errant balls knocked back down by them during competition

I read elsewhere on the internet that architect Martin Ebert has been commissioned to eliminate 40 bunkers at RL&SA

[Tony_Muldoon]

"course architect, Martin Ebert, revealed that he’d been commissioned to take out 40 bunkers at Royal Lytham at the same time as four new ones were being added at the Open Championship venue. “The course is proving too difficult for the members and also the maintenance cost with revetting is enormous,” he said. “We think this will help the everyday players, but also maintain the challenge for the best players.”

The members have spoken! Speak up again, and again I say.  80 should be fine.  Will go back and pay a green fee when they get to that no.  Leaveing 160+ still means an Average of 9 per hole and it gets old very quickly.

I'm huge Colt fan but we do need to remember he was the last Architect of note to sculpt the course.  At the very least he contributed to the  200+  and students should also look at this work at Thurlestone and I believe it was Tandrige whoose hyperbole claimed, one bunker for every day of the year.

[Niall C]

Right, this is my last post this year that has anything to do with bunkers.

I wonder what "take out" entails ? It probably means fill in and turf over so as to disguise the fact that a bunker has been there. Possibly it might mean some would be retained as grass bunkers which would be good. I'd also love to see them perhaps keep a couple out in the periphery where they simply de-designated them (if that's the term) as bunkers and simply allowed them to degrade naturally. They would still be a hazard in the sense of being difficult to get out of but there would be no up-keep cost. I'd love to see how they degraded over time. It might change the perceived wisdom that we need to redo revetting every 5 years.


Niall

[Sean_A]

40 bunkers?  Too little too late 


David the overiding effect of Lytham for me is avoid sand or else.  It got old for me very, very quickly.  I think there is a far better course sitting on that excellent land...if the principle of bunkers or else is given up...extremely disappointing golf course.  Lytham is not for me...would much rather play Formby along that stretch of land. 


Ciao

[MCirba]

Niall,

I like your thinking on how best to proceed.

Naysayers,

I say let Lytham be Lytham.  I do understand the members and their expense argument however.

[Sean_A]

Naysayers,

I say let Lytham be Lytham. 

Absolutely.  Its very easy to avoid going there so no worries. 


Ciao

[MCirba]

Sean and Tony,

I certainly understand, appreciate, and respect your critical opinions regarding Lytham and it does require a bit of a Spartan attitude to accept that you're going to get your butt kicked and you're going to have lies in bunkers where you really don't have much of a prayer, and all that jazz.

I just think the course had a very cool vibe, lots of variety, some sweet holes and greensites, and if I were to have to play a constant diet of it I'm quite sure I'd be a much better player than I am today.

Good discussion.   Cheers.

[Thomas Dai]

 “The course is proving too difficult for the members and also the maintenance cost with revetting is enormous,” he said.

Seems like the members are getting a bit soft.


The course was harder before modern equipment came about and I'd imagine that maintaining the bunkers was a more time consuming process in previous decades too, or have bunker maintenance standards/expectations increased significantly over the years?


Atb

[Tony_Muldoon]

Naysayers,

I say let Lytham be Lytham.  I do understand the members and their expense argument however.

Actually I sort of agree with you. I wouldn't have missed it for the world and if all 'Championship' links courses did have a similar, or 'ideal', no of bunkers, then we wouldn't need GCA would we?

I just think for people who haven't been there its hard to imagine how many there are. Fill in 40 and probably more than 50% of the shots they would have captured. will just run into the bunker that was previously behind.

 Mike was this one of the first Links course you saw?  Ally had a thread where a no of great links course were idenitfied with well under 100 bunkers. Lytham is such a contrast and as you seem to be implying, on the whole that's a very good thing.

[MCirba]

Tony,

My links total played is quite slight, sadly, although I've studied them from afar salivating over many a decade.

I played The Old Course and North Berwick West Links back in 1985.

The links courses I played this trip included Muirfield, Gullane #1, Old Musselburgh, Renaissance Club (Links with trees), and then on the last day we played Lytham and Fairhaven.

I most certainly enjoyed the variety, as you allude, and Lytham with over 10 bunkers per hole added to that sense of the whole continuum.

[Sam Krume]

Really liked RLSA when playing it. It is definitely not the most scenic course(as most will testify too) you will ever encounter but felt all the holes flowed well and didn't feel hemmed in on the property. Plenty of bunkers but so what...it is what it is, that's Lytham. I think i visited 4 of the devils but took my medicine, splashed out and carried on, and i did this all with a smile on my face!!

[Bill_McBride]

I haven't been to Lytham.  How many of the bunkers are reveted?   I've seen two under construction/rebuilding for maintenance - one at Muirfield, one maybe at Princes? - and it is a major undertaking.  The annual cost to do just 18 a year would be substantial, and that would be on a ten year cycle. 

[MCirba]

Bill,

All of them looked revetted to me, and you're correct, it's a very major undertaking from the looks of the work going on at the left fairway bunker at Muirfield the day we were there.