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MCirba

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Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« on: November 29, 2015, 10:10:28 AM »
Various sources including Cornish & Whitten list Willie Park Sr. as the designer of Gullane #1.

I've been trying to track the evolution of that course and have yet to come across any contemporaneous or secondary information where Park is named.

Does anyone know the source of the Willie Park Sr. 1892 attribution?   Thanks in advance.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill_McBride

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2015, 10:20:04 AM »
Archie Baird is related by marriage to a descendant of Willie Park, and I'm pretty sure he credits Park Sr for the layout.    I think I recall that from our wide ranging conversation this past May. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 01:29:17 PM by Bill_McBride »

BCrosby

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2015, 10:59:13 AM »
Good question. I would like to hear what others have found.


One of the earliest (if not the earliest) drawing of Gullane #1 was done by Benjamin Hall Blyth. Might he have been involved?


Bob


 

MCirba

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2015, 06:28:16 PM »
Bill/Bob,

Great thoughts and feedback. 

Perhaps someone could go ask Archie?  My only regret on my recent trip is that I wasn't able to meet him and tour his musesum.  I'm a stupid.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill_McBride

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2015, 09:05:56 PM »
Hopefully one of the East Lothian guys will see this and do just that.  At 90 Archie is very chipper and still plays at both Gullane and Muirfield every week and should have the answer.


In May I got his phone number off his web page, called and found him very happy to give us a tour of the museum.  He's a living history of Scottish golf and just a delight to be with.  He does have a really good dirty joke he loves to tell.  😀

MCirba

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2015, 10:38:39 AM »
Bill/Bob,

I just ordered Archie Baird's book, "Golf on Gullane Hill", which I'm hoping has more information regarding the origins of the #1 course.   Thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2015, 11:40:30 AM »

Mike,
Archie Baird has been a member of Gullane, and married into the Park family, for 50+ years. The club's website says the architect of #1 is unknown. You've set yourself a mighty task.  ;D [size=78%] [/size]


The Scottish Golf History website has the Hall-Blyth map posted:
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2015, 01:37:19 PM »
Jim,

I find it interesting that a number of sources including C+W have cited Willie Park Sr. 

It would seem the "unk" is a more recent development and I'm interested to hear the backstory.  Evidently, there was also a falling out with Willie Park Jr., over payment terms on courses 2 and 3.

Inquiring minds, et.al...

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2015, 09:52:19 AM »
I picked up a nice signed copy of Archie Baird's "Golf on Gullane Hill", and while it's a terrific little book, it doesn't shed any light on the involvement (or not) of Willie Park Sr. in the creation of the 18 hole course.

What is useful from a course evolution standpoint, however, are the B. Hall Blyth maps of the course that shows the original 7 holes circa 1840, 1525 yards and basically playing in and around today's pro shop and up and back down Gullane Hill.

The next map shows the 15 hole course at 3620 yards that was played up until 1884, with holes that cross the street over near today's visitor's clubhouse and onto that course (which I'm not sure is today's No 2 or 3?), but also mostly on the land of today's #1 course, this time going up over the hill and playing around today's holes 5, 6, 7, etc.

Indeed, the next map which shows the original 18 hole course also played well into land across the street with about 5 or 6 holes over there with a course total of about 4900 yards.   This would have been the course sometimes credited to Willie Park Sr. in 1884 but only a few holes bear resemblance to holes on today's #1 course.

Finally, there is a 1910 map that I'm going to need to take some time with a magnifying glass to fully interpret and report on, that shows all three courses after #3 was built.   From the looks of it initially, it seems almost all of today's #1 course was in play, and that it differed considerably from the 18 hole course map the late 1800s which leads me to believe that likely Willie Park Jr., not Sr. deserves the most credit for today's course.   That would make sense, given the changes to the golf ball over that time.

 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Niall C

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2015, 09:31:11 AM »
Mike

I recently came across a reference in Golf Illustrated of 1899/1900 of BHB and another two committee men laying out what would have been Gullane No. 2. Can't recall the exact wording but I think the inference was that they supervised the work. There's no reference to Willie Park Jnr although interestingly the club website credits him with laying out No. 2 in 1898 and No. 3 in 1910.

I do recall reading somewhere that the club fell out with Willie over fees on one of the courses which might account for BHB and pals overseeing the laying out of the second course. Clearly they had made up before he worked on no. 3 if that was the case.

I haven't seen any plans but I'd guess that any major rearrangement of No. 1 to what is there now, probably occurred when the laid out no. 2.

Niall

BCrosby

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2015, 10:23:30 AM »
There was a lot of work being done on East Lothian courses in the early 1890's. NB was revised. New courses at Muirfield and Gullane were built. All important courses. Who did what, however, remains unclear. The names of OTM, Ben Sayers, Park and others have been associated with one or another of those courses.

But the name associated with ALL of those courses is Benjamin Hall Blyth. I don't know what work he might have done. Perhaps that is now lost to history. But I suspect there is a lot of interesting stuff to be found with some digging. 

BHB was one of the most powerful men in golf at the time. A regular commentator on rules issues in the 1890's. He was largely responsible for making the R&A the sole sanctioning body for rules issues. He became chairman of the first R&A Committee on the Rules in 1897 and headed up drafting golf's first uniform rules published in early 1900.   

That the R&A asked him to do the pre-construction drawing for the New Course in 1894 suggests that he was seen as having experience in golf course design.

We know a good bit about BHB's contributions to the rules. We know little about his contributions to golf architecture. My guess is that those contributions are greatly under-appreciated.

Bob   
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 04:14:59 PM by BCrosby »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2015, 04:38:20 PM »
Benjamin Hall Blyth was one of the most powerful men in golf at the time. A regular commentator on rules issues in the 1890's. He was largely responsible for making the R&A the sole sanctioning body for rules issues. He became chairman of the first R&A Committee on the Rules in 1897 and headed up drafting golf's first uniform rules published in early 1900.   

That the R&A asked him to do the pre-construction drawing for the New Course in 1894 suggests that he was seen as having experience in golf course design.


Or, maybe he was just a good artist to provide a drawing?


I have no idea one way or another, apart from that I'm naturally skeptical when historical figures I've never heard of start being given tentative credit for famous courses [Burbeck, Hood, et al.].  I'm not sure how involved Willie Park, Sr., was in golf architecture, either, but it's quite possible that he had more to say on the ground than he had ability or inclination to draw up a plan.

MCirba

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2015, 04:57:01 PM »
More later but Gullane 1 went to 18 holes in 1884 yet the date for Park Sr. In C+W is 1892.  Could be just a typical error in that otherwise very good book.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

BCrosby

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2015, 10:13:54 AM »
Tom -

Claims for BHB should indeed be treated with skepticism.

I can't shake the suspicion, however, that there is something there.

Specifically, BHB's drawing of the New is a detailed pre-construction drawing of holes and features (done as part of a proposal for Parliamentary approval of the Links Act). The course built was pretty much the course BHB drew. Which suggests that he had a fairly solid grounding in golf design. The logical place to look for that grounding is at the East Lothian courses he was involved with in the 1890's.

Whether that thesis holds water is unclear. But I think it is worth looking into.

Bob


   


 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2015, 12:32:34 PM »
Tom -

Claims for BHB should indeed be treated with skepticism.

I can't shake the suspicion, however, that there is something there.

Specifically, BHB's drawing of the New is a detailed pre-construction drawing of holes and features (done as part of a proposal for Parliamentary approval of the Links Act). The course built was pretty much the course BHB drew. Which suggests that he had a fairly solid grounding in golf design. The logical place to look for that grounding is at the East Lothian courses he was involved with in the 1890's.

Whether that thesis holds water is unclear. But I think it is worth looking into.

Bob


 


I thought Old Tom is credited with the New.  Perhaps he talked and BHB drew. 

BCrosby

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2015, 10:01:05 PM »
Bill -

The official R&A history has BHB down as the designer of the New, OTM and others are credited with building it.

Might there be reasons to think that BHB was more involved with early modern golf architecture than is usually appreciated? Below is taken from Henry Leach's 1917 BHB eulogy:

"Mr. Hall Blyth was sixty-eight years of age, and a life member of the Royal and Ancient Club. Being an engineer by profession he could not help applying some of his engineering and constructional instincts to golf courses. Probably he was the first real golf course designer. Until he turned his attention to the business, which is now pursued ardently and thoroughly by many persons, golf holes were to a large extent made themselves, as it might be said. Nature, the lie of the land, suggested the places where putting greens should be made, the places for teeing, and the main route to the hole. In course of time it might happen that a number of persons who were agreed upon the point, such as the committee of a club or society that played upon the ground, would dig a hole for a bunker at a spot where it was considered there should be some punishment waiting, but this sort of thing was very sparsely done, for it was considered and generally found that Nature made quite enough trouble for the golfer. It was more or less in this way that most of the famous holes on the old courses came to be made, such as those of St. Andrews, North Berwick and other places, though in latter times bunkers were added according to carefully arranged schemes. But Mr. Hall Blyth considered that fine holes might be made without waiting for the slow evolution from Nature, and he set himself about the design and construction of such holes at St. Andrews itself, North Berwick, Muirfield and Gullane, and on these famous greens there endure testimonies to his fine imagination, great golfing judgment, and skill as a designer."
   
While BHB was still alive Horace Hutchinson described him as follows:

"The tall and handsome figure of Mr. B. Hall Blyih, C.E., is assuredly known to golfers on many greens of the country, perhaps, however, not so much to-day as it was wont to be. At North Berwick, Gullane, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Hoylake and Sandwich Mr. Hall Blyth's stately presence has often been seen among the players on the links. But his name is most prominently associated with the development of East Lothian golf, for his efforts, as well as those of the late Mr. Edward Blyth, justly entitle the two distinguished relatives to be described certainly as the pioneers of East Lothian course extensions…He was also one of the designers of the Muirfield Club and course, and he helped to persuade the Corporation of Edinburgh to buy the Braid Hills as a municipal course; so that his long golfing career is very intimately connected alike with the popularity and spread of the game throughout the United Kingdom."

Most people today associate BHB with the development of uniform rules and the political battles he waged in getting them promulgated. It is striking, however, that two of BHB's contemporaries (prominent ones at that) make no mention of his work on the rules committee. They associate him with golf architecture. 

Bob
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 10:16:53 AM by BCrosby »

DMoriarty

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2015, 10:17:59 PM »
Bob,
Tom MacWood provided some interesting background information on Blyth in this essay:

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/in-my-opinion-the-early-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood/
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

BCrosby

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2015, 09:14:37 AM »
Thanks David. Yes, good stuff from Tom.


Bob

Niall C

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2015, 11:34:55 AM »
Thanks David for the link to Tommy Mac’s essay including the section on BHB. I think there’s no doubt that BHB was a leading light in golf at the time, if only on the administrative side rather than the playing side as TMac suggested, and that he was also a member and played a leading part at more than just the clubs listed. Evidence also shows he wasn’t a man who was afraid to voice an opinion.

Whether that translated into him being active in golf course design beyond perhaps producing plans of existing courses I’m not entirely convinced. The eulogy and admiring description from Henry Leach and Horace Hutchinson, both presumably friends of his, are certainly persuasive but then again contemporary reports suggest that Old Tom did indeed lay out Muirfield and that BHB produced the plan after the event. Contemporary reports also suggest Old Tom laid out the New course as well.

Then there is Luffness New and Kilspindie, both of which were clubs BHB was involved in and both had new courses designed and built in the 1890’s, and neither of which were designed by BHB but BHB did produce the plan for Kilspindie. At Kilspindie the well known and accomplished amateur golfer A.M. Ross (father of Philip MacKenzie Ross of Turnberry fame) worked with Sayers to produce the layout. Subsequent changes to Muirfield were done by Robert Maxwell, club member and amateur champion. Maxwell also largely designed the original Erskine course as well as consulting at Prestwick. Then you have Mure Fergusson at Duff House and New Zealand, and Colt at Rye. The common denominator is that all these guys were top class amateur golfers. BHB simply doesn’t fall into that category.

To me, that lends weight to the argument that BHB was more involved on the periphery of design rather than being a big force in the field. I can well imagine BHB sounding off on committee and elsewhere, particularly with regards to construction as he was a civil engineer after all, and maybe being part of a committee overseeing work as he was at North Berwick for the 1895 extension and at Gullane for the second course. In short, I can see him being the type of man to get things done, just not sure he was the guy to actually do it.

All that said, it would be good to find out more.

Niall   
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 05:18:05 AM by Niall Carlton »

MCirba

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2015, 12:00:33 PM »
Niall,

I think you spelled that out exactly correct.   BHB was also very involved at North Berwick yet I've seen no contemporaneous evidence of him being involved in the design or any design changes.   Your mention of Muirfield being incorrectly attributed to BHB based on his "as built" drawing is spot on and well documented elsewhere on this site by Melvyn and others (more on that in another related thread when I have time).

In the case of Gullane and the changes implemented to build a new course around the turn of last century, I'd mention the following copied from Archie Baird's book "Golf on Gullane Hill".

A New Course

The end of the 19th century approached with golf at Gullane booming.   In 1898 a second, or relief, course was suggested.   Willie Park junior was asked to look at the ground and direct the laying out of the new course.   He came down from Musselburgh three times and went over the new course, giving his advice.   He submitted an account for ten guineas.  The committee of Gullane Club considered this excessive and directed the secretary to request Mr. Park to modify his account.   This Mr. Park declined to do, so the amount was paid in full.


Unfortunately, there is no mention about anyone's involvement on Course #3, also widely attributed elsewhere to Park Jr.   A segment from the same book, as follows;

No. 3 for 1,000 Pounds

The 1909 accounts show green fees of 1,000 pounds and the cost of constructing the new course at just over 1,000 pounds....

In 1910, Mr. Hall Blyth presented the splendid set of maps which show the growth of the three courses and are an(sic) unique record of 27 years progress.   


Bob Crosby was gracious enough to post the 1840 7-hole map prior that was done by Hall Blyth.   Without permission, but citing the source, perhaps later today I'll be able to post the subsequent 3 maps.   Thanks for everyone's info.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 07:31:31 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2015, 01:58:33 PM »
Mr. Edward Blyth wrote his reminisces of a number of East Lothian courses that are included in the Rev. Kerr's "Golf-Book of East Lothian", circa 1896, including Gullane, which he recalled playing since 1859.   I'm not sure the year he wrote his essay but recalled that an 18 hole course was first created in 1861, at a time the course was presently 13 holes (would become 15 holes again by 1878, 18 holes by 1884), but that those additional five holes were never kept up well and shortly abandoned.

To the original question of this thread, Mr. Blyth does mention "I several times had matches at Gullane with Willie Park, sen., he giving me four strokes..."   This of course shows nothing but that Park Sr. was seemingly regularly at play at Gullane during those years.

As far as the BHB maps, in following order they show Gullane circa 1878 (15 holes), 1894 (circa 18 holes) and circa 1910 showing all three courses.   It seems from the description that they may all have been drawn around 1910 but that is unclear.







"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2015, 07:23:47 PM »
Thanks, gentlemen, for giving such great background on Mr. Hall-Blyth.  I really knew nothing of him before this thread.


It's possible that he does deserve some credit for some of these courses, and was unfairly overlooked, precisely because he wasn't such an accomplished player.  The same thing happens often today ... big names get all the credit, but others contribute important ideas along the way.


It's just impossible to know how much, if any, should be given to whom.  We had 8-10 people involved at Tara Iti who would see themselves as having contributed something to the final design, and be correct in doing so; I suspect it should be much the same for most outstanding courses.  But how many names are ever going to go on the scorecard?  Probably just one, or at most two, in which case the second guy is usually getting too much credit relative to the others, if not to his boss.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2015, 11:03:02 PM »

I love this first map of Gullane #1, which shows the golf routing, the smithy, and two taverns!   The Scots have always had their priorities straight. 


Mike,
Archie Baird has been a member of Gullane, and married into the Park family, for 50+ years. The club's website says the architect of #1 is unknown. You've set yourself a mighty task.  ;D


The Scottish Golf History website has the Hall-Blyth map posted:

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2015, 09:26:04 AM »
As others have said Hall Blyth was there or thereabouts on so many of these courses one has to wonder what his role was?

I’m a little puzzled that he's known mostly for his drawings, when fact they were very basic for an engineer.

Niall has sent me copies of clippings from Golf, April 5 1895 that state he was on the Green Committee when the North Berwick links was revised. The article gives most of the credit to it’s young leader Mr John McCulloch, in particular for the siting of the present day 14th green.  During the creation of the hole, the bunker that fronts the dune was created and it ran all the way across the width of the fairway. At its rear it was shored up by railway sleepers. As was the bunker to the left of the Redan green.  Is this the earliest use of sleepers for bunkers?  Hall Blyth as noted above, was instrumental in getting the railway to North Berwick.

So many questions.  Fascinating discussion thanks.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

BCrosby

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Re: Did Willie Park Sr. design Gullane?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2015, 10:11:43 AM »
Any discussion of BHB has to begin with the fact that he was among the most powerful people in the game in the 1890's. Other than men who made their reputations as great players, BHB was, arguably, the most powerful. See the Hutchinson account of him posted above.

BHB was a force within the R&A on several fronts. He seemed to be everywhere in Edinburgh and East Lothian golf. He was at one time or another captain of HCEG, NB, Gullane and New Luffness. He served at one time or another on their green committees and the R&A green committee. He drew routings for those clubs, including the pre-construction drawing of the New.

His engineering firm still exists. It was extremely successful at the time (and perhaps still is). Blyth & Co. did the engineering work on much of the Scottish railway system and built several of its largest train terminals.

We may never know the full story of BHB's contributions to golf architecture. I'd guess that he actually preferred it that way. As far as I can tell he wrote nothing on the topic. Nonetheless, there is certainly a lot of smoke. All of which might be no big deal except for the fact that the period in question marked the beginnings of modern golf architecture.

Bob       
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 11:09:38 AM by BCrosby »