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Kalen Braley

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2015, 11:18:05 AM »
Keep it coming guys....this is interesting!  ;D


Mike_Young

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2015, 11:19:23 AM »
Mike,

Also, in context of the times, all that happened was 14 guys agreeing not to charge below a certain fee level.  I am sure there were more than that in the biz and that RTJ charged higher, and that generation of non ASGCA members charged less if they wanted to.  In that sense, they didn't really restrict competition, but left themselves open to undercutting.  At the same time, I am sure they spent most of those dues promoting the advantages of using an ASGCA member, based on their ethics, continuing education, etc.  It has always been a hard sell against lower fees!

Jeff,
I missed the part about the superior ethics of ASGCA member.  That could be an entirely new topic if I just had the time ;D ;D but right now I'm trying to rig some bids with contractors and see what kind of kick backs I can get from some vendors if I allow them to work on this project but it seems like they spent all their money on ASGCA....it's a pickle... ;D ;D
Restricting competition only comes about when they convince a municipality to only use ASGCA members...otherwise go for it...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2015, 03:12:05 PM »
Mike,

Again, I don't see why you keep hammering away at something that was discontinued long ago?  Or, blindly apply modern standards to 1948 when those were written.  There is no price fixing in the design professions, and it was abolished by courts long ago.

I will say from my experience, it is near impossible to get an engineer to work for less than 7%, so there are still some vestiges of it in engineering.   So AIA and others changed with the times.  Not sure what else you can expect.  And, contrary to your last sentence, believe me, it is never going to be on the table again. 

Similarly, that ASGCA phrase I put into our sample/suggested/template RFQ has no legal obligation or standing for them to use.  Most cities don't use it, or if they initially do, they change it.  I have never seen it enforced, although perhaps Wilmington did, for all the good it did this ASGCA member.

As to your comments on trade groups, as far as I know, so far ASGCA is doing okay in its reputation (outside golf club atlas.....) mission, expenses and funding, although it is always an issue.  As mentioned, we continue to change with the times and you seem to think our group can't and won't be able to adapt in the future as we have in the past.  That may be possible "this time", but overall, your gripes are overstated by a factor of several times.......Bringing these old gripes  is close to a Fox News/Trump kind of false statements, intended just trying to inflame, but hardly "fair and balanced."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2015, 03:21:31 PM »
And, by the way, and back to your original question, I still think of gca as a profession that includes craftsmanship.

All types of contracts (design bid, design build, design independent construction manager, design sub out to multiple sub contractors, etc.) have always been in place.

In the 1940's, ASGCA did try to elevate the planning part of it, but never took away the right to construct your own designs.  While the question of "is it really the lowest cost" can't be answered in design build, for many private owners, that is not even a consideration.   It is a new trend for some municipalities to use this format over design bid.

In the 1950's, Wadsworth emerged as a one stop shop for golf course construction, reducing the design, sub to many contractors mode by a bunch.

LUI pioneered the design build approach for golf from the big contractors side.  It is the only method I have been involved with, and there are both some advantages and conceptual problems with that contract mode as well.  Specifically, in any design build the tendency is to use cheaper materials, etc.  Not that those decisions aren't made by others when building under other contracts, but when California Greens are substituted for USGA for cost reasons, and the contractor profits, it is a problem.

Of course, many, like Pete Dye, put there full time guys out there at Owner's expense, but with no construction responsibility, which is perhaps just another form of feeing a project to death, no less than drawing a lot of unnecessary plans for bid.

I guess my only point in sharing these thoughts is to give a longer term perspective. Sort of like young landscape architects bringing back Elm trees, oblivious to the history behind them not being used for the last 50 years.  Not an exact analogy, so Ben doesn't jump all over me, but I do think some forget the history of how things came to be.  And, some point fingers and point out problems almost exclusively, and the reality is usually a lot more complicated than can be expressed in a simple sound bite like "Plans are a waste."

Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2015, 05:26:11 PM »
"is it really the lowest cost" can't be answered in design build
wrong


  Specifically, in any design build the tendency is to use cheaper materials
False  -  my experience is quite the opposite - in the competitive bid envuronment where everyone is doing all they can to cut costs to win the job, that is when the cheap stuff starts going into the ground or the low bid, but change order to death tactics come out.

Design build works best, IMO, when it is the designers doing the building, not the builders doing the design.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2015, 05:59:41 PM »
Don,

There is no doubt competitive bids provide many owners ease of comparison for bids and the ability to select lowest price (as most want) or best value, on an apples to apples basis.

I agree that in the low bid situation, you can get the "I didn't bid it that way" comments later from the contractor.  Of course, part of that is the ability of the architect to put specific specs out, rather than just call for "USGA Greens."  But it sure can happen if a design builder has the same loose contract, and runs into early financial trouble. 

Perhaps the easiest example (since you design irrigation) is irrigation supplier supplied irrigation plans.  When I review them, they are almost inevitably based on the selling the most of their product, and related areas, such as pipe size, controller sophistication, etc., are not always to my liking. 

As to the designer building, there can be problems with that, too.  Specifically, the designer may be more prone to endless changes to get the design perfect, whereas the contractor is interested in getting things done in a timely fashion.  Not that any point made is universal, but it sure has happened.  For many, though, it makes most sense for the designer to design and the builder to build (and the owner to own)  It create some tension, by design, as specialists in each area represent the different aspects of the job.

Either way, you need a builder you can trust and a competent architect.  There is no one system that is perfect for every job is all I am saying.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2015, 06:41:13 PM »
Jeff,
Sorry I just saw your post #52 and #53.

I did not think I was harping back on the past but just replying to your questions.

Here's my whole deal.

GCA was in the beginning done by mostly guys who had means and they did not make a living from it.  As various occupations in the golf business and amateur players decided to charge for such it became competitive.

When RTJ saw a chance to create a "profession" and thereby self annoint a group as the experts, he took it.  His goals were documented as setting prices as well as keeping people out. 

ASGCA is a club for golf course architects.  Since it is an elected membership voted by a board of directors it has no standing to justify it's members as more qualified than those outside of the club.  When one or two can black ball then it is no better than that one or two.

Today ASGCA may not determine pricing but as long as they send out a sample contract stating that only ASGCA members should be able to bid a job, then they are providing a contract which unknowingly can be a restriction of trade for many municipalities.  Therefore they do their best to restrict trade on behalf of their members.  ASGCA cannot stop it's members from "selling" ASGCA to a client as better than those not elected.  That will always be.  So when they do I will come at them as hard as I can.

When I first applied ASGCA frowned on architects building their projects , yet many had their own construction companies( once they were members)  Seems that has changed from one of your statements above. 

ASGCA along with GCBAA were instrumental in creating a unsustainable golf construction cost over the last 30 years.  They created a Mercedes environment when a Honda spec was needed for most projects. 

So, here we are in 2015 and as always free enterprise will win out.  You love ASGCA, I have no respect for it.  It is what it is.  So many of the young ASGCA associate members were never taught to sell and were never taught how to build at a budget other than top end.  That's going away.  It's amazing how naked one can feel once the signature kicks them to the side. 
________________
I just read the conversation with Don.  IMHO I can say that a good designer building his own course will give the owner the best deal IMHO.  There will be plans but they may be mainly routing plans and drainage/irrigation plans.  I don't think one needs green plans.   
As more designers set up to build their own things will change.   The biggest competition the "professional" style archies will have is from the giant golf construction companies they have helped create.  These guys will hire a young dude to draw for cheap and will be putting up stuff left and right for munis.  It's going to get interesting.
Cheers....
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 11:22:48 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2015, 06:47:45 PM »
Jeff,
Today if guys come together to set fees it is called price fixing and is punishable.   Guys have gone to jail for that.  Me?,I think the free enterprise system has done just fine in determining the value of services. 


Mike:


If I were to do one thing for the good of the game, it would be to round up most of the talented young design/build guys and get them to form one big, elastic company [a bit like Colt, MacKenzie and Alison], so they could take all the work and divide it amongst themselves, instead of bidding their prices down to nothing to get the work away from the other guy.


If architecture fees are determined by supply and demand, there is so much supply and so little demand these days that they're headed toward minimum wage pretty soon.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2015, 07:09:40 PM »
Mike,

I agree design build is making a comeback or surge, depending on your point of view.  It offers a way to either hide fees, or reduce them to the bare minimum as the contractor, for example has to do quantities to bid, and no sense the architect doing loads of them and a bid form when the contractor will do his own anyway.

I think design has always been undervalued in general, and design build and the information age in general will do nothing to increase its value in the minds of those who pay the bills.  And yes, any time any of us pair with Wadsworth, LUI, etc. we reduce our own value.  Funny thing is, if you look at the standard design build  contracts issued by the DBIA, the architect has pretty much the same responsibilities as if he was working for the Owner.  In my experience, that leads to some sticky situations where the contractor who is paying you says "approve this mix" and its not really 100% suitable.  Again, the value of someone looking purely from a design or agronomic standpoint vs. someone who looks at cost and constructability.

It will take a long time for the world to go completely design build, IMHO, probably never 100%.  And, remember, its been around since they started building buildings and other things.  The factors that align (i.e., need to cut cost is seen as more important than the need for independent supervision) will only stay in place so long.....everyone will see the problems after seeing nothing but potential, and the pendulum will swing back, or forth, who knows.  But, nothing stays the same forever.

Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2015, 07:20:38 PM »
If I were to do one thing for the good of the game, it would be to round up most of the talented young design/build guys and get them to form one big, elastic company [a bit like Colt, MacKenzie and Alison], so they could take all the work and divide it amongst themselves, instead of bidding their prices down to nothing to get the work away from the other guy.


If architecture fees are determined by supply and demand, there is so much supply and so little demand these days that they're headed toward minimum wage pretty soon.

Again, demonstrating what the guys after two decades of depression and war must have been thinking....if there is some way to take care of our own.......they also thought it good for the game and profession.  Its easy to question their motives when they are in the grave and can't defend themselves.   As Mike notes, it is free enterprise (sometimes literally as too many gca's work too much for free!)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2015, 08:14:47 PM »
If I were to do one thing for the good of the game, it would be to round up most of the talented young design/build guys and get them to form one big, elastic company [a bit like Colt, MacKenzie and Alison], so they could take all the work and divide it amongst themselves, instead of bidding their prices down to nothing to get the work away from the other guy.


If architecture fees are determined by supply and demand, there is so much supply and so little demand these days that they're headed toward minimum wage pretty soon.

Again, demonstrating what the guys after two decades of depression and war must have been thinking....if there is some way to take care of our own.......they also thought it good for the game and profession.  Its easy to question their motives when they are in the grave and can't defend themselves.   As Mike notes, it is free enterprise (sometimes literally as too many gca's work too much for free!)


Jeff:


Yes, that's part of the reason I posted.  But, what I proposed was to try and monopolize a lot of talent into one company and win on reputation ... not to form a professional organization and declare others unqualified.  I'll side with Mike on that one.


By the way, you keep using the term "design/build," but that's not what Bill Coore or I do, and I'm not sure it's what any of these young guys are doing, either.  What I've been teaching them is "design / shape" ... the same as Mr. Dye. 


I'm neither greedy enough nor crazy enough for a real design/build scenario, as there are both too many things that can lead to bankruptcy, and too many potential conflicts of interest.  But providing shaping with the design allows you to build a course with a project manager / superintendent and an irrigation contractor [or both at once, like Don M.], instead of a full-on golf course contractor, and there are huge savings in that.  And any designer who would cut corners on shaping in order to make a little more money off the construction, would not be in the design business for too long.

Mike_Young

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2015, 08:42:42 PM »
Jeff,
Reading TD above and your analysis of design/build makes me take one more stab.  I realize you are trained to write specs/ detail drawings etc and I can accept that.  There are many type of architecture that require such. 
Tom is saying design/shape which is a much better term than design/build so perhaps I have been using the wrong term to describe the process.
While in school I was a cabinetmaker.  If someone wanted a walnut table 3 ft wide and 6 feet long with a trestle base, I could sketch a picture and then build the table with a tablesaw and a tape measure.  If an interior designer wished to do a detailed plan and make a list of materials and write a set of instructions and then give it to me to build then it wold be a more expensive table but yet the same table and the same goes for many art forms such as  Michaelangelo and the Statue of David.  All I'm saying is I think golf "architecture" as a profession will go down as a period in the overall history of golf course making.  The professional architect period created so many "landscape architect type courses" for every one good one that came along. That it will be proven inefficient. 
sort of like this:
1900-1930 approx  - architects were amateurs and did not depend on it for a living..

1930-1945 approx- guys had gained reputations and were charging fees for golf design and for lack of a better term were using the word architect...

1947 -2008-  architects were presenting themselves as design professionals with specifications being bid to general contractors

2008 - now  guys were on site, working in the dirt with routing plans and other basic details and "living" the building process...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 08:44:26 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2015, 09:29:54 PM »
GCA was in the beginning done by mostly guys who had means and they did not make a living from it.  As various occupations in the golf business and amateur players decided to charge for such it became competitive.


Mike:


Are you talking about the beginning of GCA in America?  If so, you have this completely wrong.


In the 1890's, the vast majority of the courses built were designed (or laid out) by guys who were getting paid for it.  Bendolow, Dunn, Park, Braid, etc. were all professionals, and where they weren't doing the original course, they were getting hired to improve it shortly after.  They were charging "for such" from the start.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill_McBride

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2015, 09:35:55 PM »
Jeff,
Reading TD above and your analysis of design/build makes me take one more stab.  I realize you are trained to write specs/ detail drawings etc and I can accept that.  There are many type of architecture that require such. 
Tom is saying design/shape which is a much better term than design/build so perhaps I have been using the wrong term to describe the process.
While in school I was a cabinetmaker.  If someone wanted a walnut table 3 ft wide and 6 feet long with a trestle base, I could sketch a picture and then build the table with a tablesaw and a tape measure.  If an interior designer wished to do a detailed plan and make a list of materials and write a set of instructions and then give it to me to build then it wold be a more expensive table but yet the same table and the same goes for many art forms such as  Michaelangelo and the Statue of David.  All I'm saying is I think golf "architecture" as a profession will go down as a period in the overall history of golf course making.  The professional architect period created so many "landscape architect type courses" for every one good one that came along. That it will be proven inefficient. 
sort of like this:
1900-1930 approx  - architects were amateurs and did not depend on it for a living..

1930-1945 approx- guys had gained reputations and were charging fees for golf design and for lack of a better term were using the word architect...

1947 -2008-  architects were presenting themselves as design professionals with specifications being bid to general contractors

2008 - now  guys were on site, working in the dirt with routing plans and other basic details and "living" the building process...


You don't think Alister Mackenzie, Harry Colt and James Braid didn't count on fees for their operating income?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2015, 09:43:48 PM »
GCA was in the beginning done by mostly guys who had means and they did not make a living from it.  As various occupations in the golf business and amateur players decided to charge for such it became competitive.


Mike:


Are you talking about the beginning of GCA in America?  If so, you have this completely wrong.


In the 1890's, the vast majority of the courses built were designed (or laid out) by guys who were getting paid for it.  Bendolow, Dunn, Park, Braid, etc. were all professionals, and where they weren't doing the original course, they were getting hired to improve it shortly after.  They were charging "for such" from the start.


Sven
Sven,
I could have it wrong.  I don't study that stuff that much.. But my point is the same...in the beginning it was hard if ot impossible to make a living at it and it was usually subsidized in some way.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that...jus that was the way it was.  There will never be enough work for all of the people that profess to be professional architects today....impossible but some wish to continue to say that's what they do....

Bill,
I don't know ;D ;D ;D    it's possible I could be wrong...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2015, 10:07:02 PM »
GCA was in the beginning done by mostly guys who had means and they did not make a living from it.  As various occupations in the golf business and amateur players decided to charge for such it became competitive.


Mike:


Are you talking about the beginning of GCA in America?  If so, you have this completely wrong.


In the 1890's, the vast majority of the courses built were designed (or laid out) by guys who were getting paid for it.  Bendolow, Dunn, Park, Braid, etc. were all professionals, and where they weren't doing the original course, they were getting hired to improve it shortly after.  They were charging "for such" from the start.


Sven
Sven,
I could have it wrong.  I don't study that stuff that much.. But my point is the same...in the beginning it was hard if ot impossible to make a living at it and it was usually subsidized in some way.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that...jus that was the way it was.  There will never be enough work for all of the people that profess to be professional architects today....impossible but some wish to continue to say that's what they do....

Bill,
I don't know ;D ;D ;D    it's possible I could be wrong...


Mike:


I do think you have it a bit wrong. 


In the beginning, there were a bunch of guys who made a very good living off of it.  So much so that it became a career option, ala Donald Ross.


It wasn't a job you could jump off the bus and sign up for, but for the right guys (particularly those with an accent) it wasn't hard to make it work.  Many of these guys combined design work with other trades (club pro, club maker, etc.), but there were a good number who were able to ride the early boom in golf just on laying out courses.


From a historical aspect, there's a lot more to explore here, including the emergence of American born architects, the ability of guys like William Langford to get into the profession and the effect of the depression and World War II on the entire industry.  The last point may be the most important in determining just how and why the guilds were formed.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sean_A

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2015, 05:07:53 AM »
Sven


I think for the the UK Mike has it largely correct.



There weren't actually that many British archies that I would say were making a living solely from architecture during the boom of the game.  Wasn't Colt the first to really give it a go when he quit his job as secretary of Sunningdale...when was that...I think when he got involved in the Swinley Forest project or thereabouts...1908ish?  Dr Mac too was getting geared up, but I am not sure he made a living from the gigs (hell, considering how he died broke I am not sure he ever made a decent living as an archie).  Park Jr had other business interests in golf and elsewhere.  Simpson was independently wealthy.  Fowler was employed by Walton Heath. I spose Hawtree was fairly early, maybe 1910-15 and I think he concentrated on design and build management.  Abercromby managed Addington.  Other guys like Alison, Morrison and Croome were in the main partners relying on a bigger name.  For all the explosion in great golf, very few made any money and nobody became anything close to rich from the profession.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2015, 08:29:40 AM »
If I were to do one thing for the good of the game, it would be to round up most of the talented young design/build guys and get them to form one big, elastic company [a bit like Colt, MacKenzie and Alison], so they could take all the work and divide it amongst themselves, instead of bidding their prices down to nothing to get the work away from the other guy.


If architecture fees are determined by supply and demand, there is so much supply and so little demand these days that they're headed toward minimum wage pretty soon.

Again, demonstrating what the guys after two decades of depression and war must have been thinking....if there is some way to take care of our own.......they also thought it good for the game and profession.  Its easy to question their motives when they are in the grave and can't defend themselves.   As Mike notes, it is free enterprise (sometimes literally as too many gca's work too much for free!)


Jeff:


Yes, that's part of the reason I posted.  But, what I proposed was to try and monopolize a lot of talent into one company and win on reputation ... not to form a professional organization and declare others unqualified.  I'll side with Mike on that one.


By the way, you keep using the term "design/build," but that's not what Bill Coore or I do, and I'm not sure it's what any of these young guys are doing, either.  What I've been teaching them is "design / shape" ... the same as Mr. Dye. 


I'm neither greedy enough nor crazy enough for a real design/build scenario, as there are both too many things that can lead to bankruptcy, and too many potential conflicts of interest.  But providing shaping with the design allows you to build a course with a project manager / superintendent and an irrigation contractor [or both at once, like Don M.], instead of a full-on golf course contractor, and there are huge savings in that.  And any designer who would cut corners on shaping in order to make a little more money off the construction, would not be in the design business for too long.

Tom,

I think I covered some of the related methods in one post, and I understand how you and Pete (and the Jones) work.  The reason I focused on DB is that the project that prompted this thread was advertised by the City of Winter Park as DB.

And, while not disparaging that method, but just to educate, it can have the same problems as others.  Namely, unless the top/lead architect is the shaper on site, I have heard complaints from Owner's reps that an intern shapes a feature, then the regional architect shapes it, then everyone waits for the head of firm to come tell them its okay, not much different than a plans based field guy not really having the final authority.

I have also seen some cases where the architect writes that kind of contract, to put his shapers on the contractors construction crew, so the gca avoids risk.  Contractors don't like it, because those clauses come with different conditions, like more salary, more time off, etc. But mostly, those separate but required shapers get paid whether the project finishes on time or not, while the contractor gets stuck with the risk, so there is friction.

Like I said, a wealthy owner seeking the best possible golf course can put up with this. In most cases, the type of contract matters, and it works best legally if the designer designs, the builder builds and the Owner owns (i.e. approves the general directions of things and pays the bills)  While you hate to think this kind of thing would happen, i.e. lawsuits, they inevitably do, and then its easier to sort out.

I mean, it is a multi million dollar construction contract/agreement so its a pretty big deal in most cases to figure out the p and q of the whole thing.

Of course, I have had complaints about coming out too infrequently to the job site and them having to wait, or me overturning some underlings decision, and I was on the other end of that at Killian and Nugent back in the day.  (Partnerships are the worst in some cases.....I recall a project rep asking me what Ken and Dick would say about how some feature was built.....and my answer was "Ken would like it, Dick wouldn't)

In the end, I believe it costs what it costs for every particular project no matter what the architects method.  The key is to have a good/great top designer visit the site as often as required to keep the troop moving by making timely design decisions.  If the lead designer is the lead shaper, then great, it might be the best option of all.  If not, it doesn't really matter.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2015, 08:32:20 AM »
Sean:


There was a reason UK pros were going to America for work.  There really is no comparison between the different growth cycles.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2015, 08:41:35 AM »
By the way, as a plans first, field visits guy, I have one contract with weekly visits now, another with biweekly.  When shaping is active (and it is usually spread throughout the 6-9 months fairly evenly, with a few bursts of activity to get ready for drainage and irrigation) once a week is really too much, and many visits are for paperwork only. 

Sometimes, once every two weeks is too spread out, and I end up going on an every ten days rotation, weather permitting, like Monday-Tuesday week 1, Thursday-Friday week 2, Monday-Tuesday week 4, etc.

Actually, I found out it is true, being less busy leads to better work.  Back in the day, some projects were left with second in command as it were, and sometimes, as I am sure TD or others who have or had big staffs would attest, a talented architect does a lot better when they take ownership of the project.  In those cases, the head guy has some decisions to make - Come in with a flourish and make some changes to prove the client is getting a design by the top dog, or minimizing changes of already completed work to buff up his associate.

I have a few projects out there that were field supervised by some of my more talented associates over the years that probably were better than if I was in charge.  Those guys (John Colligan, who Trey Kemp works for) and Jeff Blume are now doing quite well on their own.  However, most of my "Best New" lists came when I had a big enough contract to put those guys out a lot, but also stopped by a lot myself. 

Job politics are always kind of interesting........and working with shapers may be a topic all its own that has never been covered here.  Not sure if its worth a thread or not.  Obviously, only a few of us could share shaper stories, but they are (cue music from "How I Met Your Mother"......LEGENDARY. 

Just saw Sven's post.  Again, it points out golf design is a profession, intended to be reasonably profitable, necessary to be at least a middle class living  and only unintentionally a non profit (although it happens quite a lot that way!)  You would be surprised at how many of us couldn't survive now without working spouses supporting our hobby/profession, an option that didn't exist back in the old days.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 08:44:45 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2015, 08:56:41 AM »
Jeff:


I'm not sure if saying it was "intended" to be a profession is the right way to describe the evolution of the job.


Its probably more accurate to say it "worked out" to be a profession.  Ross wasn't going into the design business out of just a love for the game.  He went into it because he saw the business opportunity, and because he had seen guys like Bendelow, Dunn and Findlay make a living at it.  He knew the game had taken root in America creating a demand for services he could provide, and that he was in the right spot at the right time to make the jump.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2015, 09:05:20 AM »
So how is seeing an opportunity to make money not intended to be a profession?

You might be saying it could always have just been a construction based industry, but plans prior to construction are always a big part of it. It may not have been intended (I think it was, as architecture and landscape architecture preceded it) but it was almost inevitable.

And the short version of my friendly disagreement with Mike is that I don't see the business of building golf courses getting any less sophisticated or hard, which in general should lead to more pre-planning, not less.   As the old (and now outdated by CAD) saying goes, its cheaper to run a pencil than a bulldozer.

And, of course Ross and nearly every successful architect loved the game, and tried to find a way to make a living at it.  While most were content at making a living, a few (like RTJ in his recent bio) wanted to be rich, famous, and friends to kings and stars and business moguls, so each are driven a little differently. 

Of course, there is another old saying - If you want to be wealthy, be a contractor.  The only way to make a million in architecture is to start with two million!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2015, 09:25:57 AM »
Jeff:


You stated that it was "intended to be reasonably profitable."  Who exactly had this intention?


My point is that there was a demand, and there were guys with the skills and/or knowledge to meet that demand.


No one decided to create a new avenue of work out of thin air, it just worked out that way.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2015, 09:35:15 AM »
We seem to have different mindsets......but I am reasonably sure most of them hoped to make money!  And, if you hire people and develop some kind of organization rather than being a lone wolf, then money matters do enter in.

I doubt things have changed at all in the field of human nature, so that is the basis of my statement.  However, neither you or I were there, and as noted, if there were 50 golf course architects back then, they probably had 50 different variations of prime motives...

Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: Has the industry finally realized GCA is a craft and not a profession?
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2015, 09:43:16 AM »
Interesting debate but not sure what it is accomplishing.  Too many chips on shoulders and too many crosses being carried.  Whether GCA is a craft or a profession, I have no idea and not sure it matters?   Like almost any craft, profession, hobby, vocation, job, interest, …, it is what you want it to be.  At the end of the day, things sort themselves out.  Those who want it to be a profession will find out if that is possible and those who want it to be a craft or a hobby will find out the same.  When I first started doing this back in 2003, few thought I had any chance of success.  What they didn’t realize is that success is a relative term.  I might not have a new course resume like Tom Doak (never expected I would), but I had nine different courses under some phase of construction last year and have worked with over 60 different clubs/courses in the last 12 years.  The money is what it is but I’m having fun with it and making a positive difference.  It is more passion than dollars for me.  By the way, I like design/build and take that approach often.  I admit it is also easier when you are only rebuilding a green or two or adding tees or doing a new range or short game area.  On our bigger projects where we are restoring or renovating almost the entire golf course, we have bid out the work at the club’s request.  We still tend to invite contractors we know and trust. 

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