[Doug Siebert]

James.
While I won't dispute that the players continue to get longer, I'd say it really doesn't matter that a 6 iron goes farther because it is simply a 5 iron of 10 years ago and a 4 iron from jack Nicklaus era.
Lofts are decreasing and shaft length is increasing.
I saw a 42 degree PW the other day.
How many Gap wedges would you need between that and a SW?

42 degrees?  That's my 8 iron!  I should upgrade my 26 year old irons so I can tell everyone how I'm two clubs longer with my new irons 

[Garland Bayley]

Shopping for clubhead components, I have seen companies offering Gap 1 & Gap 2 wedges, which pushed the PW down to the loft of the 8 iron.

[Doug Siebert]

Shopping for clubhead components, I have seen companies offering Gap 1 & Gap 2 wedges, which pushed the PW down to the loft of the 8 iron.

If they keep going that way, in a hundred years the entire set will consist of gap wedges so they will drop the 'GW' and just list the number and we'll be back where we started 

[Frank Giordano]

 Quote from: Mike_Young on October 29, 2015, 09:37:37 pm<blockquote>The unknown in some of this year to year data is weather conditions and fairway heights. If the PGA tour has a year with more damp days than another year then distance can either even out or possibly drop BUT lower fairway heights have so much to do  with distance also and seems that would be showing an increase even with same ball and clubs...
</blockquote>

Quote from Jason Topp in reply to Mike: 
           Mike - I think the weather factor would have evened out over the last ten years.

I'm not sure the "weather factor" has evened out, as we keep hearing that "this year's weather," by which forecasters mean high temperatures, is the hottest in recorded history.  Climate is changing.  Those higher temperatures mean harder ground and longer rollouts on long shots, whether tee shots or fairway woods. 
   

[Padraig Dooley]

If accurate, a 3.5+ mph increase in ball speed over four years is HUGE.


Bob

Unfortunately, I don't know for sure if it is accurate or not.  Padraig Dooley posted it in March of 2004, but I don't know where he got the information.  (I had thought it was a screen grab from a telecast, but looking at it again I am not so sure.)  Anyway here is the link to when he posted it.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57757.msg1357080.html#msg1357080

I'm sure I got that information at a TPI seminar (a seminar on power!) in January 2014 but I've come across it other times at other seminars as well.

1 mph ball speed can give up to 2 yards more, but of course an increase in ball speed doesn't necessarily mean an increase in club head speed, can mean the player is being more efficient.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_getting_faster_better_stronger?language=en

In this TED talk David Epstein produces evidence to say that all major jumps in performance are mainly due to technological advancements, we can safely say this about golf too and the biggest ones have always been the ball more then the clubs. It doesn't look like we'll see any big jumps in the foreseeable future, there are limits in place. But I think there will still be little creeps upwards, due to players continue to improve the smaller factors like fitness, nutrition etc.

One thing I rarely see in distance arguments is the point of view of the 65 year old who hits it the same distance as he/she used to as a 45 year old. Will this not help them enjoy the game more? It's no fun moving up 2/3 sets of tees and still not being able to reach par 4s in two. There's quite a substantial amount more of these players then the 300 yard hitter.

[Doug Siebert]

[One thing I rarely see in distance arguments is the point of view of the 65 year old who hits it the same distance as he/she used to as a 45 year old. Will this not help them enjoy the game more? It's no fun moving up 2/3 sets of tees and still not being able to reach par 4s in two. There's quite a substantial amount more of these players then the 300 yard hitter.

Unless distance increases keep happening that's a temporary phenomena that depends on timing (how old you are when distance increases hit) I'm probably two clubs shorter with my irons and 20-30 yards shorter off the tee than I was a decade ago (I turn 50 next year) so there's no way I'll be hitting it as far at 65 as I was at 45. Instead I gained distance between age 20 and 40, even though I swung one hell of a lot harder at age 20 than I did at age 40. Someone who was 40 when I was 20 would more likely had technology keeping their distance constant. I'm sure some of it depends on the type of swing. I've always derived enormous power from my shoulders, I don't have the kind of 'fast hands' swing that seems to age better.

Losing distance is never going to be fun for anyone, but if technology would have had to add another 20 yards in the past decade for me to keep hitting it the same distance I think the game is better off with me hitting it shorter! At this point I'm still long enough to play from the back tees most places, but when that's no longer true I'll move up. When the game stops being fun I'll quit. If it stops being fun because I'm not hitting the ball far enough, I shouldn't ask everyone else to pay more to play because architects are forced to build 9000 yard courses to account for a hotter ball to keep me playing.

[A.G._Crockett]

[One thing I rarely see in distance arguments is the point of view of the 65 year old who hits it the same distance as he/she used to as a 45 year old. Will this not help them enjoy the game more? It's no fun moving up 2/3 sets of tees and still not being able to reach par 4s in two. There's quite a substantial amount more of these players then the 300 yard hitter.

Unless distance increases keep happening that's a temporary phenomena that depends on timing (how old you are when distance increases hit) I'm probably two clubs shorter with my irons and 20-30 yards shorter off the tee than I was a decade ago (I turn 50 next year) so there's no way I'll be hitting it as far at 65 as I was at 45. Instead I gained distance between age 20 and 40, even though I swung one hell of a lot harder at age 20 than I did at age 40. Someone who was 40 when I was 20 would more likely had technology keeping their distance constant. I'm sure some of it depends on the type of swing. I've always derived enormous power from my shoulders, I don't have the kind of 'fast hands' swing that seems to age better.

Losing distance is never going to be fun for anyone, but if technology would have had to add another 20 yards in the past decade for me to keep hitting it the same distance I think the game is better off with me hitting it shorter! At this point I'm still long enough to play from the back tees most places, but when that's no longer true I'll move up. When the game stops being fun I'll quit. If it stops being fun because I'm not hitting the ball far enough, I shouldn't ask everyone else to pay more to play because architects are forced to build 9000 yard courses to account for a hotter ball to keep me playing.

No worries guys; the idea of a 65 yr old hitting it as far as he did when he was 45 isn't real.  The two things that have the biggest influence on distance aren't the ball OR the club; it's pure swing speed added to solid contact, regardless of what you are swinging or what you are hitting.  And that 65 yr old?  He simply CANNOT swing it as fast as he did at 45, and he his contact isn't nearly as solid nearly as often. 

What the clubs and balls do for the 65 yr old are enable him to get better distance when he misses the center of the clubface, and get the ball acceptably airborne despite much slower swing speeds.  But hit it the same distance as 20 years earlier?  No way; none!  Hell, I'm 2 clubs shorter than I was 20 years ago (I'm 63 now) and I have the latest, greatest equipment custom fitted to me.  I work out regularly, stretch EVERY morning, swing a weighted club, you name it.  Doesn't matter; I'm getting shorter all the time.

[Jon Wiggett]

I am still hitting the ball the same distance I did 20 years ago and I hit the ball like crap compared to what I used too. A.G. is right, the clubs let you get away with bad strikes. On the down side the modern balls are just about unworkable which is a shame. Damn things only seem to fly straight though not always where you want

Jon

[A.G._Crockett]

I am still hitting the ball the same distance I did 20 years ago and I hit the ball like crap compared to what I used too. A.G. is right, the clubs let you get away with bad strikes. On the down side the modern balls are just about unworkable which is a shame. Damn things only seem to fly straight though not always where you want

Jon

Jon,
How old are you?

[Garland Bayley]

I am still hitting the ball the same distance I did 20 years ago and I hit the ball like crap compared to what I used too. A.G. is right, the clubs let you get away with bad strikes. On the down side the modern balls are just about unworkable which is a shame. Damn things only seem to fly straight though not always where you want

Jon

Really Jon? I can make the modern balls slice and hook like crazy. I just can't predict when it will happen.

[Jon Wiggett]

I am still hitting the ball the same distance I did 20 years ago and I hit the ball like crap compared to what I used too. A.G. is right, the clubs let you get away with bad strikes. On the down side the modern balls are just about unworkable which is a shame. Damn things only seem to fly straight though not always where you want

Jon

Jon,
How old are you?

46.

Garland,

I don't move the ball in the air (willingly or not ) anything like I used to be able to.

Jon

[Jeff_Brauer]

When speaking of moving modern golf balls, one of the more disappointing things is that no matter what the wind, they hit it high to max out distance.  Not just left and right, those old shot makers had to change it high and low as well.

[A.G._Crockett]

I am still hitting the ball the same distance I did 20 years ago and I hit the ball like crap compared to what I used too. A.G. is right, the clubs let you get away with bad strikes. On the down side the modern balls are just about unworkable which is a shame. Damn things only seem to fly straight though not always where you want

Jon

Jon,
How old are you?

46.

Garland,

I don't move the ball in the air (willingly or not ) anything like I used to be able to.

Jon

Jon,
I have some REALLY bad news for you about the difference between 26, 46, and 66.  It is entirely possible for a 46 yr. old to be hitting the ball as far (or at least very, very close to it) as he/she did at 26, equipment aside.  I know I did, and the equipment was basically identical.

But this I can promise you; unless clubs and balls are fitted with gasoline engines over the next 20 years,  you'll hit it shorter at 66 than you do now.  A LOT shorter. 

And it won't matter what you do, either; I work out religiously, swing a weighted club EVERY morning, do serious stretching EVERY morning, and so on.  I weigh the same, haven't had any major injuries, nothing, and my equipment is fitted and state-of-the-art.  Despite all of that, I get to my ball MUCH more quickly now than I did even 5 years ago; about 25 yds. off the tee, and two clubs or so with the irons compared to 20 yrs ago. 

I'm not sure where YOUR point will be, but Father Time is waiting in the bushes for Jon Wiggett, too.  And he's undefeated...

[BHoover]

But this I can promise you; unless clubs and balls are fitted with gasoline engines over the next 20 years,  you'll hit it shorter at 66 than you do now.  A LOT shorter.

Explain Tom Watson. He may not be quite as long as he was 20-30 years ago, but he still manages to get it out there.

[Garland Bayley]

When speaking of moving modern golf balls, one of the more disappointing things is that no matter what the wind, they hit it high to max out distance.  Not just left and right, those old shot makers had to change it high and low as well.

Are you sure of that? Perhaps it is more the configuration of the huge drivers that is limiting.
A high ball is going to be held up by the wind no matter the spin. A low ball is not going to get maximum benefit from the wind going downwind.

[A.G._Crockett]

But this I can promise you; unless clubs and balls are fitted with gasoline engines over the next 20 years,  you'll hit it shorter at 66 than you do now.  A LOT shorter.

Explain Tom Watson. He may not be quite as long as he was 20-30 years ago, but he still manages to get it out there.

Now THAT is an easy explanation!

Tom Watson is like Nolan Ryan was in his mid-40s; he is a genetic freak.  Make no mistake about that.  You and I can draw fewer conclusions about ourselves and our possibilities from Tom Watson than we can from Bubba Watson.  If what Tom Watson is doing was repeatable/transferable, there would be LOTS of people doing it; there aren't.  So the exception proves the generalization...

And Watson, btw, would be the first to tell you that he has lost distance; a LOT of distance!  He has said that ANGC is much too long for him, and now he says even the British Open courses are.  What Watson really does is A) hit it a long way FOR A MAN HIS AGE, and B) hit it incredibly solidly for a man of ANY age. 

[Jon Wiggett]

A.G.,

father time not only reduces your distance off the tee but in your case obviously the mental capacity . I was saying I was in total agreement with you including on the point of mishits but alas you have aged to much to be able to comprehend

Jon

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.,

father time not only reduces your distance off the tee but in your case obviously the mental capacity . I was saying I was in total agreement with you including on the point of mishits but alas you have aged to much to be able to comprehend

Jon

Jon,
Your opening sentence was to the effect that you hit the ball the same distance that you hit it 20 years ago, no?
If you're lucky enough to stick around for 20 more, you won't still be saying that, even about the balls you DO hit squarely!

[Jon Wiggett]

What the clubs and balls do for the 65 yr old are enable him to get better distance when he misses the center of the clubface

I am still hitting the ball the same distance I did 20 years ago and I hit the ball like crap compared to what I used too. A.G. is right, the clubs let you get away with bad strikes.

A.G.

I was simply agreeing with your assertion that modern clubs allow you to hit the ball a better distance with a miscue and backing that up with the fact that despite me striking the ball a lot worse I still hit it the same distance. Gee, what a klartihed

[Peter Pallotta]

Perhaps foolishly, I am drawing a different conclusion after reading AG's posts. If even daily stretching and a commitment to exercise and staying injury free and using the latest equipment won't help, perhaps eating badly and often, drinking espressos by the bucket, using persimmon woods and 40 year old irons, and loading up on Advil for a bad back will do the trick!!  You think? Maybe? Am I on to something?
Peter

[A.G._Crockett]

Perhaps foolishly, I am drawing a different conclusion after reading AG's posts. If even daily stretching and a commitment to exercise and staying injury free and using the latest equipment won't help, perhaps eating badly and often, drinking espressos by the bucket, using persimmon woods and 40 year old irons, and loading up on Advil for a bad back will do the trick!!  You think? Maybe? Am I on to something?
Peter

Pete,
Even if the results are the same, you would have a lot more fun, be less frustrated, AND have built in excuses!  Go for it...

[Peter Pallotta]

 
To paraphrase Woody Allen: "And let's not forget built-in excuses, they're my favourite kind"

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