Sagebrush coming back (retitled)

[Bob Jenkins]

I should have mentioned that there is a new 7th fairway which should be an improvement. The old 7th was a par 5 with an uphill drive to a bench and eventually to a drop shot approach to a massive green, something like 20,000 square feet.


The new fairway is to the left, or downhill of the old fairway with relatively little elevation change. It looks good. I understand that work was carried out by Rod early in Mr. Chandler's tenure as owner.


Otherwise, I did not see any changes to the course.

[Pete_Pittock]

Good idea as it opens the old fairway as a warm-up area. The drive and approach were most likely blind. Assume they kept the old green

[Bob Jenkins]

Yes, Pete, the 7th green is still visible from the cottages. I did not see any other changes to the course.


Bob

[Wayne_Kozun]

Thanks for the update Bob.  What is the business model for the course when it reopens?  Will it become a traditional public resort course or are they staying with a private golf club model?

[Bob Jenkins]

Wayne,


When we met, Andrew was working on that very subject. I pointed him towards Cabot, Sand Hills and Bandon for examples of relatively remote courses with different models of membership and some names associated with those sites. I believe he has had some discussions with people connected with those courses, for example Ben Cowan-Dewar, but I am not sure if a decision has been made in that respect. Sagebrush is about 1.5 hours from Kelowna, 1 hour from Kamloops and about 3.5 hours from Vancouver. It will have to be a destination course with those cities having the nearest airports for people from the east or the U.S., assuming the border opens up again. Also, the number of cottages will eventually have to increase, or at least some other form of accommodation at the site could be built.


I hope to get more information soon.

[Andrew Harvie]

It is my understanding that the 7th was not Rod’s handiwork, but another young Canadian guy who typically doesn’t work for Rod. I won’t name names as I’m not sure it’s supposed to be “out there.”


It’s an okay golf hole. I walked it last year. I think the hole in itself is not an improvement, but I think when working with the 16th, that played fairly similar to the original 7th, it’s going to be an improvement.


This is a top 10 golf course in the country and any news that suggests it’s coming back is a good thing.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Wayne,


When we met, Andrew was working on that very subject. I pointed him towards Cabot, Sand Hills and Bandon for examples of relatively remote courses with different models of membership and some names associated with those sites. I believe he has had some discussions with people connected with those courses, for example Ben Cowan-Dewar, but I am not sure if a decision has been made in that respect. Sagebrush is about 1.5 hours from Kelowna, 1 hour from Kamloops and about 3.5 hours from Vancouver. It will have to be a destination course with those cities having the nearest airports for people from the east or the U.S., assuming the border opens up again. Also, the number of cottages will eventually have to increase, or at least some other form of accommodation at the site could be built.


I hope to get more information soon.

Thanks Bob.  Is there room and/or suitable land for a second course?  I think it is very hard to make a go of it if there is only one course at a golf-centric resort as you can't reach economies of scale.

[Kalen Braley]

Drew,


I'm not understanding the comparison of 7 to 16.  Other than the approach to the green being downhill, i'm seeing very little similarity otherwise.  16 is such an out of the box and unique golf hole, its an instant classic IMO.

[Andrew Harvie]

Drew,


I'm not understanding the comparison of 7 to 16.  Other than the approach to the green being downhill, i'm seeing very little similarity otherwise.  16 is such an out of the box and unique golf hole, its an instant classic IMO.

Perhaps I'm mis-remembering the holes (it has been a sad, long six years since I played Sagebrush!), but I thought the strategies are very similar. Smash a tee ball downwind, and either layup at the top of the hill or hit something to the bottom in hopes the massive kicker slope short right bounces it towards the green. The tee shots are different-ish, but I always felt like the strategies are similar. 16 is a spectacular golf hole

[Bob Jenkins]

Wayne,


I suppose its possible to build a second course up at Sagebrush but I doubt it if is practical to do so.


The course is on land leased from the Douglas Lake Ranch, which, I am told, is the largest ranch in North America. I may be possible to build a course below Sagebrush which would be partially on the same hillside and then into the valley below which is all Douglas Lake Ranch property so a land lease would have to be secured and the likelihood of the ranch agreeing to a further lease is not likely based upon the history of the course and the ranch.


The is a very compact 9 hole course below Sagebrush which is adjacent to the old Quilchena Hotel, all of which is owned by the ranch as well. The 9 hole course is without any features of note at all, gets very little play and is dead flat. That area is also subject to flooding which has occurred on at least two occasions in the last 8-10 years.


To acquire a lease from the ranch would be very difficult. When the course was built, the lease was held by the Quilchena Ranch, but since then, the Douglas Lake Ranch bought the Quilchena Ranch and merged the operations. Douglas Lake and Sagebrush do not have a good relationship, especially since the debacle of Mr. Chandler who bought from the original group and is now sitting in a jail cell in Los Angeles. 

[Andrew Harvie]

I don't think Sagebrush has the ability to have a second course because of the lease. I think their best chance for the "2nd course" model is to have a partner/shuttle with Tobiano, or travel packages with the mysterious project in Revelstoke, if it gets built.


For some reason, Gamble Sands has been able to survive (to be fair, their operational costs and land was far cheaper than Sagebrush) with only one course for awhile (currently building the par 3 course), so they need to look at what they did to stay afloat.


The issue is Kelowna/Kamloops golf market is incredibly competitive and doesn't really have a lot of room for another one. Most people who come into town play the same six courses in the area and go home. It's the reason Kelowna G&CC is the most slept on course in the province as nobody plays it when coming into town!

[Wayne_Kozun]

I don't know that the market for Sagebrush is the same as the market for Kelowna/Kamloops (and I guess I would throw Vernon in to that market as well with Predator Ridge).


I would fly from Toronto to play Sagebrush but I wouldn't make a special trip to play the other courses in the area.  I am guessing that the market for Sagebrush is North American, whereas the golf market for the rest of the area is more regional or Western Canada in terms of golf trips.


But for more of a couples vacation where golf is not the primary reason, Kelowna is a great area with gorgeous scenery, some very good golf courses and lots of nice, high quality wineries.

[Bob Jenkins]

I don't think Sagebrush has the ability to have a second course because of the lease. I think their best chance for the "2nd course" model is to have a partner/shuttle with Tobiano, or travel packages with the mysterious project in Revelstoke, if it gets built.


For some reason, Gamble Sands has been able to survive (to be fair, their operational costs and land was far cheaper than Sagebrush) with only one course for awhile (currently building the par 3 course), so they need to look at what they did to stay afloat.


The issue is Kelowna/Kamloops golf market is incredibly competitive and doesn't really have a lot of room for another one. Most people who come into town play the same six courses in the area and go home. It's the reason Kelowna G&CC is the most slept on course in the province as nobody plays it when coming into town!

Drew,


Kelowna G&CC is the most slept on course in the province? ??


It does not get play from tourists because it is private. Maybe reciprocals for some tourists.


Bob

[Wayne_Kozun]

Most private clubs in Canada are pretty easy to get on, assuming that you are a private club member elsewhere - generally a call from your pro will get you ontp the course.  This appears to be even more true of clubs in BC then in stuffy Ontario.  And I think some even allow unaccompanied guests on non-prime times in normal circumstances - I think that Royal Colwood was like this when I played several years ago.  This year is different because of Covid-19.


Kelowna G&CC's website says:

Due to the COVID-19 Pandemic we are operating as a "Member & Guest Only" Club at this time. Only Members and their Guests are permitted access to the course and tee times.

Presumably that would imply that at non-Covid times they allow more access to the club.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't think Sagebrush has the ability to have a second course because of the lease. I think their best chance for the "2nd course" model is to have a partner/shuttle with Tobiano, or travel packages with the mysterious project in Revelstoke, if it gets built.


For some reason, Gamble Sands has been able to survive (to be fair, their operational costs and land was far cheaper than Sagebrush) with only one course for awhile (currently building the par 3 course), so they need to look at what they did to stay afloat.


The issue is Kelowna/Kamloops golf market is incredibly competitive and doesn't really have a lot of room for another one. Most people who come into town play the same six courses in the area and go home. It's the reason Kelowna G&CC is the most slept on course in the province as nobody plays it when coming into town!

Drew,


Kelowna G&CC is the most slept on course in the province? ??


It does not get play from tourists because it is private. Maybe reciprocals for some tourists.


Bob

Kelowna is fully private now? It was semi-private when my buddy Bob and I played it on the way to the Sagebrush KP.
Macan and Mingay make it a place to see IMO.

[Andrew Harvie]

Kelowna is not fully private. Semi-private, with public tee times every day, but unless you've lived in the area you likely wouldn't even know! They kind of like it not being broadcasted because they're so busy. I think it's the busiest golf course I've ever seen (I was a member for a couple years).


This year with COVID is different--they're fully private this year--but on a traditional year you can call and book the shop and play.


And yes, it's a must-play because of Macan & Mingay!

[Wayne_Kozun]

Another update, this time from the BC Golf website.  Sagebrush hopes to reopen for July 1.

http://britishcolumbiagolf.org/uncategorized/4638-sagebrush-gets-a-new-lease-on-life?highlight=WyJzYWdlYnJ1c2giLCJzYWdlYnJ1c2gncyJd

New money is now being invested into the course and the hope is to have it ready for play by July 1. Pilon and his crew did considerable work on the course last fall and once the winter snowfall clears will be hard at it preparing for the July 1st re-opening.

[Pete_Pittock]

Great new for Canadians. Travelling from US requires a 10 day quarantine

[Wayne_Kozun]

Maybe there won't be a quarantine by July if the US sends its vaccines northward after finishing in a couple of months.  Otherwise we won't be vaccinated in Canada in time for the 21 season.

[Andrew Harvie]

Maybe there won't be a quarantine by July if the US sends its vaccines northward after finishing in a couple of months.  Otherwise we won't be vaccinated in Canada in time for the 21 season.

Crazy to think the US health care system is outpacing ours!

[Daryl David]

Great new for Canadians. Travelling from US requires a 10 day quarantine

Actually it’s 14 days. First 3 in a hotel. Long wait to get to the first tee.

[Andrew Harvie]

Great new for Canadians. Travelling from US requires a 10 day quarantine

Actually it’s 14 days. First 3 in a hotel. Long wait to get to the first tee.

And that hotel stay is $2,000!

[Wayne_Kozun]

The club has now hired a GM - Mark Strong, most recently Head Pro at Richmond CC.

[Bob Jenkins]

I have just had a chat with Andrew Knott, the new owner of Sagebrush who I met with last summer and who has been working hard at bringing Sagebrush back to life.


As reported by Wayne Kozun recently, a re-opening has been scheduled for July 1, ie. Canada day. He has hired a general manager with experience in the Vancouver area, a chef and Neil Pilon, who was the previous superintendent, continues to restore the course to the firm and fast condition which was so much fun. One of the cottages built by the original owners will serve as a pro shop and restaurant and the Hideout will be back, although not as a yurt. Andrew also has permission to build more cottages on site.


Another interesting development is the announcement of the Mike Keiser / Ben Cowan Dewar course near Revelstoke, B.C. With Sagebrush, Revelstoke and other good courses in the area such as Predator Ridge and Tobiano, the area can become a very fine destination.


My only wish is to see Sagebrush succeed as I spent so many days on that course with friends from CGA for several years and look forward to introducing more to the course. A new website will be up soon. Hopefully the US/Canada border will open up this summer so those south of the border will be able to return to B.C.


I have absolutely no "skin" in Sagebrush but I am very enthusiastic about the possibilities and the future of Sagebrush.


Bob

[Pete_Pittock]

The website is now up at www.sagebrushclub.ca , but there is nothing on there other than what we've heard in this thread. But you can sign up for email updates.