[Thomas Dai]

There are quite a few courses in GB&I that still play over common land grazed by livestock - RND/Westward Ho!, Pennard, Southerndown, Clyne, Sutton Coldfield, Yelverton, Tavistock, Painswick, Cleeve Cloud, Kington, Minchinhampton Old, Welshpool, Church Stretton, West Mons, Machynlleth, Askernish, Brora, Mulranny, Otway, Gweedore and the like, most of which have been commented on herein many times.

They mostly all contain splendid, interesting architecture and quite a bit if history as well and tend to be pretty free-draining too and thus available to play when many other courses aren't.

Why do they not receive more favourable acknowledgement within golfing circles? What's the prejudice (is there one?)?

It is purely a matter of the pedestrians etc plus what folk might find deposited on the ground (that you might find your ball or feet making contact with) and the overall conditioning of the fairways and greens or is there something else holding them back? In this respect it is curious that Brora doesn't seem to get unduly criticised in these regards.

Thoughts.

Atb

[Sean_A]

ATB

Yep, I do think a significant percentage of golfers want a certain level of conditioning and man-made/conventional architecture. The Pennard/Porthcawl thread made this ubandantly clear....if you didn't already know it. 

Generally speaking Brora seems to get a pass from this crowd, maybe because its on the hit list being so close to Dornoch.  But I believe not only is Brora a top 100 GB&I course, but so is Kington, Pennard, Perranporth and Welshpool.  They all have at least as much sound architecture as Brora and offer at least as much quality views, thrills and charm. They have something which Brora doesn't..extreme terrain...its a double edge sword.

One other point, there is a long tradition of courses being divided into to rough camps and most of the time the extreme and/or short courses were considered holiday courses...not to be taken seriously in terms of quality.  One played these courses as a break from the rigours of playing top courses or while on holiday with family etc.  The holiday course rep is a hard one to lose...hence we get some Pennards of this world lengthing their courses to shed that reputation...while likely forgetting the roots of the design as something extreme due to the terrain...so the lack of length helps get people around reasonably and in decent time. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I am of a similar opinion to Sean but there is no pass for Brora as it is great from a GCA view point and usually in very good condition. I think the main reason is summed up in the thread about the planned GCA trip earlier this year. Originally proposed for early spring the date was quickly pushed back once it was discovered that the grazing stopped after a certain date. It is snobbery pure and simple and what makes it even more laughable is that the very same people long for the sort of rough that grazing produces.


You could add Appelby to the list.

[Clyde Johnson]

I was going to mention Appleby, too.


On that subject...These courses often have really well playing (for want of a better word) greens, maybe because they don't have to worry about everything else as much!?

[Thomas Dai]

I'm not necessarily sure about the quality of the putting surfaces, although some can indeed be excellent.


Some putting surfaces on common land courses can be pretty ropey through the main season - maybe it's because there is often no irrigation system (eg Cleeve, Minch' Old) and the relatively free draining nature of the site means any moisture drains away pretty easily? Low budgets and lack of staff numbers too perhaps?


Also, if unlike say Briora, there are no fences around the greens the effects of animals peeing on the putting surfaces can be significant.
 
In the winter however, it's often the opposite scenario with relatively superior putting surfaces (free draining and no seasonal animal grazing).


Maybe what common land courses, even those with grazing animals, need to be better regarded, like Brora is, is decent fences around the putting surfaces and irrigated greens?


Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Great thread.  I can only think of about half of these off the top of my head when the subject comes up.


Why don't they get more love?


3.  Not long enough for the crowd who thinks that's important, which includes a lot of overseas visitors
2.  Holes too unconventional / not enough "definition" to kill off another segment, and
1.  All the shit.


For a test case, I took my client from Tara Iti, Ric Kayne, and his wife and a couple of their friends to Westward Ho! on our swing through SW England last year.  He's a member of Riviera, Sebonack, and Sunningdale, among others, and has played most of the top 100 courses, but he had never played a course on common land before.  Ric's favorite of the trip was St. Enodoc, but the two ladies both said their favorite was Westward Ho! (!)

[Thomas Dai]

I've seen animal droppings dealt with in different ways.
At Kington I've seen a huge propeller mounted (within a safety frame) on the back of a tractor used to 'blow' sheep droppings away from the playing lines/greens.
At Minch' Old I've seen the fairway mower driver get off his mower when just short of something the cattle have just deposited, scoop the offending item up with a shovel and fling it as far as possible into the rough - it usually then breaks up in the air, although it's probably not a good idea to stand downwind when such a task is being performed.
I have also heard the words "mint sauce" shouted at sheep, not sure how effectively, but the sentiment is understood.
Sometimes other factors arise though. At Sutton Coldfield some of the fences around the greens were apparently damaged because the farmer introduced bigger cattle.
atb

[Sean_A]

One of the big problems with dealing with shit mechanically is there is a decent risk that the club is now looking to upgrade the image of the course.  This in an of itself can lead to problems with these backwater courses which could eliminate some of the charm which attracts golfers.  For instance, Kington is on a kick to create more shaped fairways when part of the appeal is that the shaping is looks very natural because of sheep grazing and less mowing.  A guy on a mower is never going to recreate the odd lines. I hope the club doesn't ever have enough money to continue these practices because its the beginning of the end. Most clubs are chasing more visitors and will bend their courses to general expectations in attracting visitors.  Its not unlike the tragic over-use of water and feed in the 80s in trying to emulate American courses which was ultimately about attracting visitors.  This movement had distastrous effects which in many cases still haven't been rectified. 


Ciao

[Richard Fisher]

Aberdovey was also part of this happy and distinguished band, and indeed small electric fences around the greens were a feature of Aberdovey until relatively recently (as (see Patric Dickinson) were rubbing posts for animals, not be confused with direction posts!). Harlech also had sheep winter-grazing for much of its first century of existence.

Sean knows that he and I will never agree about the relative merits of Porthcawl and Pennard, but I do totally agree that one of the great pleasures of (say) Westward Ho! is the sense of golf being one recreation amongst many in a landscape , with the surfers, riders, kite-flyers, hikers and cyclists all sharing the ground with golfers and animals and  all (in general, although not always) getting along OK. Which is as it should be. And for that, I can put up with a certain amount of dung.

[Brett Hochstein]

For instance, Kington is on a kick to create more shaped fairways when part of the appeal is that the shaping is looks very natural because of sheep grazing and less mowing.  A guy on a mower is never going to recreate the odd lines. I hope the club doesn't ever have enough money to continue these practices because its the beginning of the end.

Oh please say this isn't so. 


What is so true to the game's origins but so increasingly scarce is the playing field being utterly organic in appearance.  One thing I really love about courses in GB&I, Holland, and northern France is how easy it can be to make the maintained areas blend right into the rough or native.  This is largely a combination of climate, soils, and golfer foot traffic.  With grazing animals, the effect is even greater and more random.  In my opinion, this effect makes the course much more believable as a natural landscape, and thus makes the golfer connect more strongly to that landscape.


I just don't see why you would give that up to try and become like the other 99.99% of courses on the planet.


If there is anything I can somehow do to help them steer the tide away from that, let me know.  From your photos and reviews, Kington looks like a truly special and unique place in golf.  It would be tragic to see it homogenize into something more like everything else.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Brett, 100% on board with that first paragraph of yours.

[jeffwarne]

For instance, Kington is on a kick to create more shaped fairways when part of the appeal is that the shaping is looks very natural because of sheep grazing and less mowing.  A guy on a mower is never going to recreate the odd lines. I hope the club doesn't ever have enough money to continue these practices because its the beginning of the end.

Oh please say this isn't so. 


What is so true to the game's origins but so increasingly scarce is the playing field being utterly organic in appearance.  One thing I really love about courses in GB&I, Holland, and northern France is how easy it can be to make the maintained areas blend right into the rough or native.  This is largely a combination of climate, soils, and golfer foot traffic.  With grazing animals, the effect is even greater and more random.  In my opinion, this effect makes the course much more believable as a natural landscape, and thus makes the golfer connect more strongly to that landscape.


I just don't see why you would give that up to try and become like the other 99.99% of courses on the planet.


If there is anything I can somehow do to help them steer the tide away from that, let me know.  From your photos and reviews, Kington looks like a truly special and unique place in golf.  It would be tragic to see it homogenize into something more like everything else.

+1
Sadly, like most good things in life, we tend to dumb things down to suit the most people, which IMHO, completely defeats the purpose of why one would play such natural, unique and scenic places, or for that matter, play golf at all.

[Thomas Dai]

I've seen a photo of TOC circa 1910 showing sheep on the course. Anyone know when animals stopped grazing TOC?


Atb

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Not so long ago, Nairn & Portnoo (the was a large fence across the second fairway; grazing was beyond this), Dunfanaghy (6th, 7th, 8th, 9th) and if my memory is not mistaken, some parts of the Coastguard nine (over the fence at the 12th until the 15th) of the old Rosapenna layout all had cattle grazing during the summers.

[Thomas Dai]

Here's the TOC photo -

atb

[Thomas Dai]

And here are cattle and fences in front of the Clubhouse at ANGC - helping the WWII war effort during the years the Masters wasn't played

atb

[Thomas Dai]

This is what Ran says about conditioning etc in his 2000 Courses by Country piece about RND/WHo! -
"Rarely though do you hear the same glowing praise today about RND (as the members refer to it). How can that be, given that as little has changed at Westward Ho! in the past eighty years as any course with which the author’s are familiar? Unfortunately, people’s perceptions have changed and none for the better. Firstly, there is the false fascination with conditioning as represented by Augusta National and other such over-manicured courses. Westward Ho! is laid over common land with sheep, cattle and the golfer’s dog having the run of the course. Thus, conditioning may suffer compared to other courses. Secondly, fairness reared its ugly head in the later half of the 20th century. To split the 6th fairway and be asked to hit a three wood from a sloping lie off a hummock to an uphill green, is that fair? Is the minute 13th green a fair target for such a long hole? What about holding the front to back 15th green downwind?
Golfers with the above concerns may be better served to stay away from Westward Ho!. For the rest of us who place the most importance on variety and challenging fun in an inspired setting, then Westward Ho! remains one of the half dozen most engaging links to visit and get to know."
Atb

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