[Patrick_Mucci]

of same maximize the options of play on this hole ?
 
This thread's premise is based upon the entire area, front tier, hollow and back tier mowed as putting surface.
 
Biarritz's where the tee and green are at similar grade seem to allow for more options of play.
 
Mountain Lake would seem to present close to the ideal options for play.
 
As great a hole as # 9 at Yale is, play tends to be one dimensional.
 
Would you prefer to play a Biarritz where the green is well below the tee ?
 
Equal to the tee ?
 
Above the tee ?
 
WHY ?
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Bill_McBride]

I like the look of the downhill Biarritz at Old MacDonald, but I think the flat hole works best to help one skip that tee shot to the back tier.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,


I agree that the visual is more informative with the elevated tee.


I wonder what the ideal differential is with respect to providing enhanced visibility while maximizing the playing characteristics

[John Connolly]

I played the Biarritz at Shoreacreas the other day which is at the same level as the tee. I enjoyed the mostly hidden swale. When my ball hit the front tier and rolled, it disappeared for a few seconds, and then magically reappeared as it rolled up the back of the swale and onto the back tier. The suspense of waiting and wondering about my ball's fate made for some great fun. Would the same excitement exist if the green was lower or higher?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,


I agree that the visual is more informative with the elevated tee.


I wonder what the ideal differential is with respect to providing enhanced visibility while maximizing the playing characteristics

I'm sticking with flat (or level is a better description).  A downhill shot will stop more quickly, you lose the visual excitement with an uphill shot.  Level the ball will run and you can see it happen. 

[JJShanley]

Are there any examples of downhill Biarritz holes, where the front of the green slopes away towards the gully?

[Jon Cavalier]

I may be mistaken, but I recall thinking that the downhill Biarritz at Old Mac worked well for exactly that reason - the front portion of the green is angled to propel the ball toward the back.

Here are two photos that (I think) illustrate this point:




And while I also tend to agree that you lose some of the visual appeal on an uphil Biarritz; the fifth at Fishers would seem to be an exception disproving that rule.

[Lester George]

Yes.  The example at the Old White is the best case for this discussion that I have seen.

Lester

[Richard Hetzel]

Hard for me to answer that. If I remember correctly, at Hackensack GC the Biarritz hole the back portion of the green might be a tad higher with the other 2 sections lower.Bill Brightly took this pic of me on Hackensack's Biarritz hole.





I think having the hole slightly above the the tee box would offer a better result on a well struck shot.

[John Butler]

Being flat and open in front, Mountain Lake's biarritz hole (#5) allows for a lower shot to roll on the green, rather than only land on the green, especially helpful when the hole is on the back beyond the slope; the green narrows somewhat as it deepens making an aerial shot not only longer but more risky.

[Mike Policano]

The back tier at Hackensack is higher than the front. And the back tier at Mountain Lake is also deceptively slightly higher.  In both cases, long on these holes is just not a good idea with back tiers sloped back to front.

[Jason Thurman]

If we're honest with ourselves, I think we all know the Biarritz is an obsolete template. The only way I'm going to purposefully land a ProV1x short and run it through the swale is if the green is elevated above the tee severely enough that I miss out on the "joy" of watching the ball disappear and reappear anyways. It's still a satisfying shot when you hit a long iron to the rear section of the green and stick it a few feet from the pin, but I would happily take the bet against anyone who thinks we can go to a Biarritz hole somewhere in the US for a day and see more than 10% of the balls hit take the intended "disappear and reappear" route to the back plateau.

[Lester George]

Back section at the Old White is higher as is the back section at Cavalier Golf & Yacht.

Lester

[Sven Nilsen]

If we're honest with ourselves, I think we all know the Biarritz is an obsolete template. The only way I'm going to purposefully land a ProV1x short and run it through the swale is if the green is elevated above the tee severely enough that I miss out on the "joy" of watching the ball disappear and reappear anyways. It's still a satisfying shot when you hit a long iron to the rear section of the green and stick it a few feet from the pin, but I would happily take the bet against anyone who thinks we can go to a Biarritz hole somewhere in the US for a day and see more than 10% of the balls hit take the intended "disappear and reappear" route to the back plateau.

I've probably seen around 500 shots of this type on the Old Mac example so far this year.  Way more than 10%, and far from obsolete.


Sven

[Bill Brightly]

If we're honest with ourselves, I think we all know the Biarritz is an obsolete template. The only way I'm going to purposefully land a ProV1x short and run it through the swale is if the green is elevated above the tee severely enough that I miss out on the "joy" of watching the ball disappear and reappear anyways. It's still a satisfying shot when you hit a long iron to the rear section of the green and stick it a few feet from the pin, but I would happily take the bet against anyone who thinks we can go to a Biarritz hole somewhere in the US for a day and see more than 10% of the balls hit take the intended "disappear and reappear" route to the back plateau.

I do not disagree, the Pro V1 has helped make the template obsolete for many players.


However, I've come to believe that the single most important feature of a good Biarritz is a REALLY firm putting surface. When the rear portion is really firm at Hackensack balls flown to the back will roll over and then it is straight downhill. That changes EVERYTHING when planning your shot on the tee. Of course, the front section has to be really firm as well so that the ball does not check and the first bounce is significant, and the ball can make it through the swale to the back section. Sadly, these firm conditions are usually only present in October when the superintendent does not have to water as much to keep the greens healthy.


Although I have not played the hole, I imagine that the approach at Fishers is extremely firm and that is why their hole works so well.

[Joe Zucker]

If we're honest with ourselves, I think we all know the Biarritz is an obsolete template. The only way I'm going to purposefully land a ProV1x short and run it through the swale is if the green is elevated above the tee severely enough that I miss out on the "joy" of watching the ball disappear and reappear anyways. It's still a satisfying shot when you hit a long iron to the rear section of the green and stick it a few feet from the pin, but I would happily take the bet against anyone who thinks we can go to a Biarritz hole somewhere in the US for a day and see more than 10% of the balls hit take the intended "disappear and reappear" route to the back plateau.

Jason,


I'm going to tentatively disagree with you here.  I've played two Biarritz holes this year (Lookout Mountain and Midland Hills) and I played both holes with a running shot.  I'll agree with you that the Pro V has had some impact on this type of hole on the average American conditioned course, but the long nature of the hole (typically over 200 yards) means balls are coming in with a flatter trajectory.  Maybe for pros or plus handicaps the play is to fly a long iron to the back tier, but most people are hitting hybrids or fairway woods that probably aren't going to hold.


The "disappearing" shot may be mitigated because it is not the only option as it was 100 years ago, but I wouldn't go as far to say this type of feature is obsolete.  If the hole is played at 170, it's silly to run a ball up with modern technology, but my two experiences at a longer distance allowed the hole to play as designed.

[Keith OHalloran]

Joe,
Did you play the running shot because you study GCA and thought it would be fun? Or was it the best shot for you to get to the hole location?
We are restoring a Biarritz at my home club, and while I am excited and think the green will be fun regardless, I do not expect players who have the ability to fly it to the hole to choose not to.

[Sven Nilsen]

If we're honest with ourselves, I think we all know the Biarritz is an obsolete template. The only way I'm going to purposefully land a ProV1x short and run it through the swale is if the green is elevated above the tee severely enough that I miss out on the "joy" of watching the ball disappear and reappear anyways. It's still a satisfying shot when you hit a long iron to the rear section of the green and stick it a few feet from the pin, but I would happily take the bet against anyone who thinks we can go to a Biarritz hole somewhere in the US for a day and see more than 10% of the balls hit take the intended "disappear and reappear" route to the back plateau.

Jason,


I'm going to tentatively disagree with you here.  I've played two Biarritz holes this year (Lookout Mountain and Midland Hills) and I played both holes with a running shot.  I'll agree with you that the Pro V has had some impact on this type of hole on the average American conditioned course, but the long nature of the hole (typically over 200 yards) means balls are coming in with a flatter trajectory.  Maybe for pros or plus handicaps the play is to fly a long iron to the back tier, but most people are hitting hybrids or fairway woods that probably aren't going to hold.


The "disappearing" shot may be mitigated because it is not the only option as it was 100 years ago, but I wouldn't go as far to say this type of feature is obsolete.  If the hole is played at 170, it's silly to run a ball up with modern technology, but my two experiences at a longer distance allowed the hole to play as designed.

Joe:


Your point on the distance of the hole is a key aspect of the template.  CBM's original intent had a distance of 210 yards, and that was in 1907.


Sven

[Joe Zucker]

Keith,


I thought it was the best play.  Both holes I referenced played about 210-220 yards to the pin on the back plateau.  I chose to hit my 3 iron to the front part of the green and hoped it ran back.  Another option would be to try and fly my 5 wood to the back. but I didn't think that was the prudent play considering a miss with the running shot probably leaves me short while a miss with the longer club leaves me to the sides of the green.


There aren't many players who can hit a 200 yard shot that lands softly.  For those who can fly it there, the hole might not be as much fun, but why worry about how it plays for 1% of the rounds when 99% of players can have all the fun?  If the best players want to play the hole as designed, they certainly have the skill to hit a low running shot through the valley.


And I will add, I agree with Bill on the firmness.  Both of my rounds were on relatively dry days where I could count on a bounce. 

[Joe Zucker]

Joe:


Your point on the distance of the hole is a key aspect of the template.  CBM's original intent had a distance of 210 yards, and that was in 1907.


Sven

Sven,


210 yards in 1907 might be comparable to 240-250 now?  I wonder how a biarritz at this length would play?  It would be very daunting if I had to try and hit a 3 wood or driver on this type of hole, but it would guarantee that my shot was a running one.  Are there any examples of the biarritz today at this length?


I'm not advocating that the hole should be lengthened to this level, but I'm curious how it would play.  Then again, the average golfer should still be hitting a fairway metal at 210 yards even today.  Even with new technology, I don't think it is obsolete.

[Bill Brightly]

Joe,
Did you play the running shot because you study GCA and thought it would be fun? Or was it the best shot for you to get to the hole location?
We are restoring a Biarritz at my home club, and while I am excited and think the green will be fun regardless, I do not expect players who have the ability to fly it to the hole to choose not to.

They will fly it there, Keith. It's kind of funny but the older guys at your club, the ones who can barely reach the green with driver, will have the most fun on the hole. They'll get the thrill of the ball disappearing into the swale and then reappearing on the back portion.


Here's an idea that I tried to get started at my club: Rather than a putting contest after a member guest, have a Biarritz shot contest. Everyone gets two or three shots. Closest to the pin wins but the ball must first land on the front tier. Golf Chairman shot me down, but I think it would be a cool way to show the membership how the hole was designed to be played.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:


Your Biarritz is 224 and 230 yards from the Blues and Blacks.  How many guys are flying it to the hole from back there?


Or is most of the play from the 200 yard range?


Sven

[Bill Brightly]

Sven,


Our Biarritz plays 245-260 from the Blacks! (We added a new back tee at the suggestion of George Bahto.!)

And all the guys fly it there...

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,


Our Biarritz plays 245-260 from the Blacks! (We added a new back tee at the suggestion of George Bahto.!)

And all the guys fly it there...

Maybe I've been watching golf on firm turf for too long.  I have a hard time wrapping my mind around "all the guys" hitting and holding the back portion of a Biarritz from 260 yards.


Even from 200 yards, I have to think the running shot is the preferred play for about 95% of players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Our Biarritz plays 245-260 from the Blacks! (We added a new back tee at the suggestion of George Bahto.!)

And all the guys fly it there...

Maybe I've been watching golf on firm turf for too long.  I have a hard time wrapping my mind around "all the guys" hitting and holding the back portion of a Biarritz from 260 yards.


Even from 200 yards, I have to think the running shot is the preferred play for about 95% of players.


Sven,

I'm with you.

I want to know who's flying irons 240-260 to the middle of the back tier and holding the green.

And I want to know what Biarritz they're playing

Why do so many address architectural and playability issues as if they're golfers of PGA TOUR PRO caliber?

I've played with a good number of GCA.comers and lurkers and the only ones who played like a PGA TOUR PRO, were PGA TOUR PROS😜

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