[archie_struthers]

 




Which begs the question ?

[JESII]

Haven't been there in too long but are there still bunkers in the woods on the left side of 15 going up to the green?  How about restoring the alternate fairway on 17?

Hi Mike,


Those bunkers are opened up now...probably 20 - 25 yards of hillside is revealed, but only from the beginning of the bunkers on (maybe 80 yards to the green...).


The concept of isolation at Pine Valley intrigues me more than the strategic implications of a massive tree removal program.


Other than#12 from the front tee, as Archie suggests, I don't think a single hole changes strategically for me if every tree on the property were removed. #12 would likely sucker me into hitting driver fairly often because you can see it and know you can reach it. Don't know how many 7's I would have to make to realize how bad an idea it is.


I really challenge the notion that isolation is sacrificed by pursuing a massive width reclamation program. I've never heard anyone at Pine Valley say the current isolation is the ideal, more anecdotal on here. Think about the holes...some tees and greens are near each other and you see other players in those instances today, just as you would after a clearing program. The mid bodies of the holes really are separated by huge margins. The parallel holes like 13 down to 15 and over to 16 cover 400 yards or more of width. Even without a tree between you, if you feel encumbered by someone 100+ yards away we call that a "you problem".  1, 2, 3 and 4 are a triangle with tons of room between the lines. From 3 green/4 tee up to the 6th hole is like a different property. 7 and 8 are fairly typical corridor widths, but play on both holes is suggested to the far side of the hole so the perfect in good position approaching each green is 120 - 150 yards from the other.


It really is a routing marvel to create wonderful isolation, not an arboreal marvel...

[MCirba]

Jim,

Thanks for the info on 15.

The rest of your post is...well, simply wonderfully stated.   I would mention that given your combination of length and accuracy I can see your point that further tree removal would have little benefit to you strategically with the exception of 12.   Some of the rest of us need a little more room to attempt to try stuff that will ultimately get us into worse trouble. 

Nicely done, thanks.

[Steve Curry]

Jim - I concur with Mike regarding your comments but am still thinking about the alternate fairway on 17?

Steve

[Mark McKeever]

I hope its more trees and less Faz screwing with the bunkers!

[archie_struthers]

 




I'm hearing good  things regarding the work at PV .  Looking forward to seeing the results!

[JESII]

Mike and Steve,

Don't get me wrong, the course would benefit greatly after an aggressive tree program. People that agree it's the best course in the world would be blown away by the vast scale that's available. For the most part, the terrain that would be revealed is really tremendous.

That said, can you name a tee shot you would play differently after the fact than you would today? That, to me, is the determinant of strategic options. Some may disagree.

If you say tree removal will provide more, and better, options for recovery, I wouldn't disagree at all...but that's sort of in step with literary great Mike Tyson's famous line..."everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face".

To me, strategy and recovery are not on the same spectrum at all.

[archie_struthers]

 


Sully's question is an interesting one . Would tree clearing change any strategic choices ?


I guess it would depend the level of clearing . Certainly we agree that the clearing on the left of #12 fairway would
tempt the long hitters into going for the green with their tee shot , to their ultimate demise. Clearing the trees behind the left green on #9 would be more visual.


Just off the top of my head removing trees on the right of #6 going all the way to the green would be interesting both strategically and might just be incredibly exciting. Just think of seeing the green from the tee, and how the angle of attack just might change dramatically . Given the distances people hit it today , I suppose someone could hit it on the green taking an aggressive line. More on that later.


Jim definitely makes some good points about the isolation of holes being important , particularly the tee boxes on #8, 9, 11, and 12. Even though they are very close to other play areas the pines help protect the boxes in a myriad of ways.


Really looking forward to seeing the work being done . Pine Valley is iconic , but hasn't been resistant to change to improve the challenge and playing conditions . We will just have to wait and see!
[size=78%] [/size]

[Sean Leary]

What about trees right on 1? Would people take a more aggressive line there?

[Mike_Trenham]

Mike and Steve,

Don't get me wrong, the course would benefit greatly after an aggressive tree program. People that agree it's the best course in the world would be blown away by the vast scale that's available. For the most part, the terrain that would be revealed is really tremendous.

That said, can you name a tee shot you would play differently after the fact than you would today? That, to me, is the determinant of strategic options. Some may disagree.

If you say tree removal will provide more, and better, options for recovery, I wouldn't disagree at all...but that's sort of in step with literary great Mike Tyson's famous line..."everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face".

To me, strategy and recovery are not on the same spectrum at all.

Jim I agree for the most part, but 1) does this just reflect the modern game where the straight ball is game and what about the impact of wind on some of the lower holes (1, 15,16 come to mind).

[Jon Wiggett]

Sully's question is an interesting one . Would tree clearing change any strategic choices ?

No, but it would add to them. If there is a one big flaw with PV it is that it offers a challenge to a one dimension type of player.

I know I will get slated for this next comment but for a 28 handicapper I doubt it would not get into the top 1000 in the world IMO.

[archie_struthers]

 


I've seen guys hit it over the road into the fairway on #1. It's usually a mistake . There is some human encroachment that might be too visible with that move . Caddie, gatehouse , putting green etc, so it might not work. You could take some out around the bunkers though .


Jon , Pine Valley wasn't built for the higher handicapper, so you could couch an argument that it's not inclusive architecture. You really could .


Jon's query reminded me of a funny story . Way back in the mid 70's I was caddying for a group from Pittsburgh that played for more than the usual and always broke up the high and low handicappers. Being low man on the caddy totem pole ( just started) I drew the two worst players for their trip . They were quite nice so it was fine. One of my guys drank a little too much so he was really challenged on the second go round of the day. It came to him telling me to pick it up whenever he thought the shot was too tough . I picked it up , he took another sip of his Scotch . 


Last round of the week and we get to #17 , my man is playing with the best player in the field as his partner . Lo and behold he cracks his best drive of the week almost to the 150 yard tree (note tree), his low handicap partner pushed it way right into an untenable position.


My guy  was perfectly placed in the fairway, in a great  position to help . His partner was still walking out of the woods as my player took a good look at the shot , figured he couldn't carry the sand and told me to pick it up.


Needless to say their aggregate didn't cash . I still remember the wailing of his partner and the laughter from his co - competitors.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sully's question is an interesting one . Would tree clearing change any strategic choices ?

No, but it would add to them. If there is a one big flaw with PV it is that it offers a challenge to a one dimension type of player.
 
Jon, some deranged moron has broken into your computer and has been posting on GCA.com under your name.

I know I will get slated for this next comment but for a 28 handicapper I doubt it would not get into the top 1000 in the world IMO.
 
I brought a 20 handicap to PV and he shot the best round of his life.
 
He thinks the course is the greatest in the world.

[Steve Curry]

Pat - I wasn't the 20 handicapper you brought but my low round was there as well.  I played better then though, too much work on the course and not enough play.

Dull boy,
Steve

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

when I played there my impression was that the average '28' handicapper would not have much of a chance there. If you were a 20 handicapper then it was a good round but then 20 to 28 handicap is a big difference Steve as Pat knows.

Jon

[JESII]

Sully's question is an interesting one . Would tree clearing change any strategic choices ?

No, but it would add to them. If there is a one big flaw with PV it is that it offers a challenge to a one dimension type of player.

I know I will get slated for this next comment but for a 28 handicapper I doubt it would not get into the top 1000 in the world IMO.

Jon,


What unique characteristics would place a course firmly in the world top 1000 for a 28 handicapper?

[Kyle Harris]

Sully's question is an interesting one . Would tree clearing change any strategic choices ?

No, but it would add to them. If there is a one big flaw with PV it is that it offers a challenge to a one dimension type of player.

I know I will get slated for this next comment but for a 28 handicapper I doubt it would not get into the top 1000 in the world IMO.

Jon,


What unique characteristics would place a course firmly in the world top 1000 for a 28 handicapper?

Windmill.
Clown's Mouth.
Pirate Ship.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,

pretty much the same as for any other level of player. My point was not about inclusion into but rather exclusion from the top 100. My experience of PV makes me believe from a GCA point of view it is too difficult for a 28 handicapper to play even close to their handicap on. As such it is unlikely to head their list. PV is a great course but not one I would want to play all too often.


Kyle,

It is a shame you feel the need to have such a sniffy attitude to 28 handicappers. One of the great things about golf is the handicapping system allowing all players to have a realistic chance of winning. We are not all such outstanding low scoring wonders as you obviously are.

Jon

[Kyle Harris]

Jim,

pretty much the same as for any other level of player. My point was not about inclusion into but rather exclusion from the top 100. My experience of PV makes me believe from a GCA point of view it is too difficult for a 28 handicapper to play even close to their handicap on. As such it is unlikely to head their list. PV is a great course but not one I would want to play all too often.


Kyle,

It is a shame you feel the need to have such a sniffy attitude to 28 handicappers. One of the great things about golf is the handicapping system allowing all players to have a realistic chance of winning. We are not all such outstanding low scoring wonders as you obviously are.

Jon

Jon,

Ma gavte la nata.

As the obviously hyperbolic reference to a Top 1000 list befits a bit of a snarky rejoinder, it seems that a mini-golf course could crack such an exhaustive list.

[Anton]

Every time I am at Pine Valley I am blown away by the scale and also the isolation... all at the same time.  I think they have done an outstanding job of controlled tree 'grooming'.  Some holes seemed a little too crowded the last time I was there (2 yrs ago) so I am excited to see what is on the horizon. 
Speaking of horizon.... I would love to see the skyline green on the 9th return.  That approach would be outstanding visually!  The historic pic was from another thread.   


Current view of 9 green left

[Jon Wiggett]

Kyle,

si quod supernatat vestram posuistis naviculam.

Jon

[Joe Bausch]

Sully's question is an interesting one . Would tree clearing change any strategic choices ?

No, but it would add to them. If there is a one big flaw with PV it is that it offers a challenge to a one dimension type of player.

I know I will get slated for this next comment but for a 28 handicapper I doubt it would not get into the top 1000 in the world IMO.

Jon,


What unique characteristics would place a course firmly in the world top 1000 for a 28 handicapper?

Windmill.
Clown's Mouth.
Pirate Ship.

Hold your tongue with two fingers and say "I was born on a Windmill".


Huh-huh. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anton,
 
What ?
 
No love for returning the skyline green on # 2 and # 17 ?

[Anton]

Patrick:

Sure.  I have much love for those as well.... although my memory of what lies behind the 17th green has faded ( faces down the 18th and towards the railroad tracks ' valley'.) 
My focus is always pointed towards the badlands short of that target and trying to make it up the hill while still being below the hole.  Same could be said for the 2nd.   

Anton

[JESII]

What about trees right on 1? Would people take a more aggressive line there?

Maybe...front tees on 1 and 6 would certainly make it inviting for people that carry it 280 or more, which is well fewer than we all think. Even if you're in that camp there's really nowhere to go unless you're on the very front tee. The 50 - 60 yard pitch into 6 isn't any better than the 100 - 120 shot...which might be the easiest shot on the course. The 60 yard shot into 1 is considerably easier than the 120 - 130 shot from just short of the road...but exponentially more difficult to attain.


in 1997 or '98 I was caddying in the first flight of the member-guest and a big guy from Charlotte flew it right in the center of the fairway about 20 yards short of the front apron on #6. I never did Google Earth it to figure out how far it was. 320 or so I'd guess.


If both greens were visible from the tee, would I ever try to cut off more than I do now? Not likely...but the holes sure would be a lot cooler than they already are.

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