2015 Golf Top 100

[Ian Andrew]

So the Golf Magazine's Top 100 list is out.

I always thought a fun discussion was:

What five should be included?
Which five would you remove?

1              Pine Valley
2              Cypress Point
3              St. Andrews (Old Course)
4              Augusta National
5              Royal County Down
6              Shinnecock Hills
7              Pebble Beach
8              Oakmont
9              Muirfield
10           National Golf Links of America
11           Merion (East)
12           Royal Melbourne (West)
13           Sand Hills
14           Royal Dornoch (Championship)
15           Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
16           Pinehurst (No. 2)
17           Ballybunion (Old)
18           Fishers Island
19           Seminole
20           Winged Foot (West)
21           Pacific Dunes
22           Crystal Downs
23           Trump Turnberry (Ailsa)
24           San Francisco
25           Carnoustie (Championship)
26           Chicago Golf Club
27           Prairie Dunes
28           Kingston Heath
29           Riviera
30           Los Angeles (North)
31           Friar's Head
32           Royal Birkdale
33           Royal St. George's
34           The Country Club
35           Sunningdale (Old)
36           Barnbougle (Dunes)
37           New South Wales
38           Diamante (Dunes)
39           Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
40           Cape Kidnappers
41           Lahinch Golf Club (Old)
42           Hirono Golf Club
43           Nine Bridges
44           Oakland Hills (South)
45           Morfontaine
46           Bethpage (Black)
47           Shanqin Bay
48           Trump International Golf Links
49           Royal Troon (Old)
50           Kiawah Island (Ocean)
51           Garden City Golf Club
52           Whistling Straits (Straits)
53           Muirfield Village
54           TPC Sawgrass (Stadium)
55           Portmarnock (Old)
56           Shoreacres
57           Camargo
58           Oitavos Dunes
59           Baltusrol (Lower)
60           Olympic Club (Lake)
61           Royal Lytham and St. Annes
62           Southern Hills Country Club
63           North Berwick (West)
64           Bandon Dunes
65           Kingsbarns
66           Maidstone
67           Kawana (Fuji)
68           Oak Hill (East)
69           Castle Stuart
70           Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
71           Somerset Hills
72           The Golf Club
73           Ellerston
74           Quaker Ridge
75           Cabot Links
76           Ayodhya Links
77           Cruden Bay
78           Ballyneal
79           Inverness
80           Ganton
81           California Golf Club of San Francisco
82           Royal Liverpool
83           Waterville
84           Winged Foot (East)
85           Barnbougle Lost Farm
86           Walton Heath (Old)
87           St. George’s
88           Royal Porthcawl
89           Swinley Forest
90           European Club
91           Harbour Town
92           Koninklijke Haagsche
93           Machrihanish
94           Kauri Cliffs
95           Sunningdale (New)
96           Tokyo Golf Club
97           Durban Country Club
98           Rye Golf Club
99           Valderrama
100         Cabo del Sol (Ocean)

[Peter Pallotta]

I would love to get *your* answer, Ian. In the meantime, my opinion on/answers to your question would be literally meaningless. But I'll say this: after years of looking at that list, it just occurred to me that The Old Course should be *off* it. It is definitely the outlier. Look at the names there in the top 30: my goodness, there is enough "architecture" and "design" going on there for a *thousand* courses. I mean, those designers certainly didn't skimp when it came to *designing*; they just *packed* in that design -- throw a stick in any direction on any of those top 30 and you're *bound* to hit some feature or two, or five. And then there sits The Old Courses, in 3rd place, sandwiched between a couple of particularly egregious show-offs, all bumbly and vague and distracted, seemingly not trying to *be* anything at all -- and yet folks keep putting it up there as if *it* has anything in common with the other 99. No - no, best to take it off the list, I think.
Peter

[Ben Malach]

In

1. Banff Springs
2. Jasper
3.St. Andrews New Course
4. Crail (Balcomie)
5.Cabot Cliffs

Out


1.Nine Bridges
2.Trump International Links
3.Muirfield Village
4.Valderrama
5.Ayodhya Links

[MCirba]

I agree with taking TOC off the list.  It's unique in that regard.  You could convince me regarding taking Pine Valley off as well

[Tom_Doak]

Out

1.Nine Bridges
2.Trump International Links
3.Muirfield Village
4.Valderrama
5.Ayodhya Links

Ben:  have you played any of the five courses you voted off the island?

That's the problem with these lists, really ... everyone wants to include 100 courses they have seen.  It's too easy to vote off the unknown.  To be rigorous, if you want to add a course to the top 100, you should have to vote off a course you've seen.  If you've only seen 50 of the top 100, you only get 50 votes, and if you haven't seen any of the top 10, you shouldn't be able to nominate any of the courses you've seen to that level.

This is not to say your choices are incorrect.  I sincerely doubt that Nine Bridges or the course in Thailand are anywhere near as good as the course I played today (St Andrews Beach).  But I cant really have an opinion on the ones I haven't seen.  I have seen Muirfield Village, and you're wrong to dismiss it.  Banff and Jasper are better than MV, in my opinion, but the others you named would be a closer call.

[Thomas Dai]

Out of curiosity, has anyone posting herein actually played all these 100 courses?


99 maybe? Or 98? Or 97?..............


Atb

[Joel_Stewart]

I agree with taking TOC off the list.  It's unique in that regard.  You could convince me regarding taking Pine Valley off as well

I'm not sure I understand why TOC should be taken off?  Perhaps it's like discussing the top 100 books and having the bible as #3?

[jeffwarne]

out
 Woodhall Spa (too many similar holes-attractive bunkering only takes you so far-to be fair I need to return
Harbor Town (see Woodhall Spa only more one dimensional-I get what it represented at the time but I'll take Long Cove any day-no need to return at all-played it too many times-)
Baltusrol ZZZ-(length aside the second best course on property and about 20th in MET area)
Whistling Straits-Give me Erin Hills any day-though not Top 100 either-If we're not going to adjust the ball get used to such to test the best


In (though arguably in the bottom half
Portsalon
Pennard
Eastward Ho-perceived lack of length a ridiculous  reason to leave it out-especially given that it's only (perhaps) too short for 1%-though I have ZERO issues with its length.
Myopia-for this not to be Top 100 says a lot about how screwed up we got-see Eastward HO


Interesting to me that there are more faux links and links inspired(Augusta) than actual links in the top 13

[Wayne_Kozun]

Nirwana Bali (Norman) should be on the list as well.  I haven't played Ayodha but from what I have read Nirwana is much better.

Our Canadian courses have received short shrift in the list.  I would think Hamliton and Highlands Links also deserve considerations, in addition to the courses mentioned by Ben.  But Cabot Cliffs is just barely open so that is understandable.

[Sean_A]

There is a handful of courses I would debate, but don't much see the point because they are sacred cows. However, from my experience, the only serious omission I can see is Prestwick.  I would certainly remove one course nobody could consider a sacred cow, The European Club.  I would remove it in Prestwick's favour. 


Ciao

[David Davis]

+1 on Prestwick. In fact, for me it's a Top 50 in the world. The other omission is Deal (Royal Cinque Ports) which I think is absolutely a great course.


Oitavos Dunes would not make my Top 150 in the world and I quite like it actually it's jut not close to as good as so many others.


Two courses I will play soon, but have unfortunately already read and seen enough about to make an initially opinion are Ayodha and Nine Bridges. Ayodhya may end up being a course I like less than even Oitavos. A friend and member of the club (also a Golf Digest man) doesn't even believe it's close to a Top 100 World. The same gentleman who's opinion I respect states that Nine Bridges isn't even the best in South Korea. Well, I'd prefer to judge for myself but my feeling is that they are really questionable.

[Ian Andrew]

Out - this would be my bottom six - out of what I've played

49           Royal Troon (Old)
53           Muirfield Village
54           TPC Sawgrass (Stadium)
59           Baltusrol (Lower)
68           Oak Hill (East)
83           Waterville

Adds - last two are a pick'em for me


1. Yale University
2. Highlands Links
3. Royal Aberdeen
4. St Enodoc
5. The Creek Club
5. Rock Creek

[JBovay]

In:


Yale
Highlands Links
Pasatiempo
Royal Aberdeen


(all of which are probably in Golf's top 125)


Out:


Cruden Bay (at least, the 2014 version)
The Ocean Course at Kiawah
Carnoustie
Kingsbarns




Tom raises a great point about the way that panelists' votes ought to be weighted. In particular, the way that Golf Magazine does it (if I understand correctly) actually gives more weight to panelists who have seen fewer Top 100/Top 250/Magazine Ballot courses, by asking panelists to rank as opposed to rate each course.

[Bill_McBride]

Nirwana Bali (Norman) should be on the list as well.  I haven't played Ayodha but from what I have read Nirwana is much better.

Our Canadian courses have received short shrift in the list.  I would think Hamliton and Highlands Links also deserve considerations, in addition to the courses mentioned by Ben.  But Cabot Cliffs is just barely open so that is understandable.

I would add Highland Links and Capilano. 


Add Pasatiempo and the Valley Club.


I would remove TPC Sawgrass.  Great theater, not great course.

[Ed Tilley]

Looking at GB & I only, we have the list below. I did a quick comparison with the top100golfcourses.co.uk list and they are remarkably similar - the top 12 are almost identical and only Machrihanish and Rye (Golf) and Royal Aberdeen and St.Georges Hill (top 100) are not in both lists. There seems to be more of a consensus now than there ever was?

1   St. Andrews (Old Course)
2   Royal County Down
3   Muirfield
4   Royal Dornoch (Championship)
5   Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
6   Ballybunion (Old)
7   Trump Turnberry (Ailsa)
8   Carnoustie (Championship)
9   Royal Birkdale
10   Royal St. George's
11   Sunningdale (Old)
12   Lahinch Golf Club (Old)
13   Trump International Golf Links
14   Royal Troon (Old)
15   Portmarnock (Old)
16   Royal Lytham and St. Annes
17   North Berwick (West)
18   Kingsbarns
19   Castle Stuart
20   Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
21   Cruden Bay
22   Ganton
23   Royal Liverpool
24   Waterville
25   Walton Heath (Old)
26   Royal Porthcawl
27   Swinley Forest
28   European Club
29   Machrihanish
30   Sunningdale (New)
31   Rye Golf Club

In both lists, Scotland has 12, England 11, Ireland 7 and Wales 1.

I've only played 13 of these, albeit 8 of the top 11. The only one of these 13 I have an issue with being in this list is Cruden Bay which I think doesn't belong that high. Pennard or St.Enodoc, in my view, are similar but superior courses.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played 62 of the courses and find myself in the interesting situation in that there are many I'd like to remove but only a few I would add. 
Remove
Oakland Hills (just a big long dull ride)
North Berwick (nice history and a sentimental favorite but top 100? Don't think so)
Inverness (To many long dull straight par fours)
Harbour Town (Fun but too many pedestrian holes)
Valderrama 
Royal Liverpool (I know I'm supposed to like it. I just don't)
Olympic Club (Odd for me to say but too treed)
Waterville (I don't understand why anyone would include this course)


There are two I'd add. Baltimore CC and St. Enodoc.

[Chris DeToro]

I've played 29 of these and a combination of US and RoW courses.  There are a couple I would take off:


Oak Hill--just really long, narrow and too many trees
Sawgrass--innovative for its time, but I just didn't find it much fun to play.  Granted I have one play on it and it was 2 weeks before the TPC and the rough was so thick that you had trouble finding golf balls


I would add:
Cabot Cliffs--granted it will likely be on the next list, but it's strategic, dramatic, fun yet demanding
Eastward Ho!--great piece of land, never a flat lie, lots of charm and character.  I know it gets knocked for being "short" but play it in a stiff wind and it's more than many can handle

[Jason Topp]

I have played 27 listed below and think the list is pretty good for those courses.  I came up with four I would take out and four I would replace them with. 

Off – Royal Troon (too linear and boring), Waterville  (nature of soil and less original), Harbour Town (too one dimensional), Barnbougle (Dunes) (I believe it gets bonus for exotic location but I am not sure the course itself is superior to other Doak courses not on the list)

On – Kingsley, Kinloch, Erin Hills, Prestwick.  (struggled with whether or not to go with Pasatiempo or Bandon Trails instead of one of these).  The merits of these courses have been discussed extensively so I will not delve into them.

Courses Played:

3              St. Andrews (Old Course)
7              Pebble Beach
12           Royal Melbourne (West)
13           Sand Hills
14           Royal Dornoch (Championship)
16           Pinehurst (No. 2)
17           Ballybunion (Old)
21           Pacific Dunes
22           Crystal Downs
23           Trump Turnberry (Ailsa)
25           Carnoustie (Championship)
28           Kingston Heath
36           Barnbougle (Dunes)
37           New South Wales
38           Diamante (Dunes)
39           Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
41           Lahinch Golf Club (Old)
49           Royal Troon (Old)
50           Kiawah Island (Ocean
54           TPC Sawgrass (Stadium)
63           North Berwick (West)
64           Bandon Dunes
67           Kawana (Fuji)
83           Waterville
88           Royal Porthcawl
91           Harbour Town
100         Cabo del Sol (Ocean)

[Ronald Montesano]

Jason Topp: Kinoch Virginia or Kinloch Australia?

[GLawson]

Ronald, the other Kinloch is NZ

[Jason Topp]

Jason Topp: Kinoch Virginia or Kinloch Australia?

VA

[Tim Gallant]

Having played a little over a quarter of those courses, I would say that I genuinely believe that Royal Aberdeen is a better course to Trump Scotland. With TS, I thought the fairways were very flat and not in keeping with its surroundings. I appreciate some of the green complexes, but they too felt calculated, and again, seemed to lack a character and charm that is so often present on many links greens.


By contrast, while Royal Aberdeen might have a weak hole or two - I think overall it has better par 4s and 5s, and possibly 3s as well when taken as a collective (however, I admit that the par-3s at TS are spectacular). Additionally, the answers don't feel as obvious at RA. On a first play, I couldn't see the answer right away. While at Trump, I could see exactly what they were asking, which seemed slightly monotonous. 

[Ben Malach]

Out

1.Nine Bridges
2.Trump International Links
3.Muirfield Village
4.Valderrama
5.Ayodhya Links

Ben:  have you played any of the five courses you voted off the island?

That's the problem with these lists, really ... everyone wants to include 100 courses they have seen.  It's too easy to vote off the unknown.  To be rigorous, if you want to add a course to the top 100, you should have to vote off a course you've seen.  If you've only seen 50 of the top 100, you only get 50 votes, and if you haven't seen any of the top 10, you shouldn't be able to nominate any of the courses you've seen to that level.

This is not to say your choices are incorrect.  I sincerely doubt that Nine Bridges or the course in Thailand are anywhere near as good as the course I played today (St Andrews Beach).  But I cant really have an opinion on the ones I haven't seen.  I have seen Muirfield Village, and you're wrong to dismiss it.  Banff and Jasper are better than MV, in my opinion, but the others you named would be a closer call.

Tom:


I have seen 2 out of the 5 that I voted out of the top 100. I know its is not in good form to comment or remove courses from the top 100 that I have yet to see. But I think the 5 I have suggested for inclusion are strong candidates.  I can say that I do think that the 4 of 5 I recommend are never going to reach the top 100.  Each for different reasons but its a shame because after multiple plays of each I personally think that each of them deserve to be there.

[Ian Mackenzie]

OUT:


European Club!!!!!
Valderamma
Harbor Town
Baltusrol (Lower)
Trump Aberdeen


IN:


Valley Club
Formby
Royal Cinque Ports
Banff Springs
Old Elm

[David Wuthrich]

I have played my far share of the Top 100 list and agree that some are left off and some should be added.

I also agree with Tom Doak in that in order to add or delete, you should have played the course.

It should be from actual knowledge of the course and not just what you have heard or seen on TV.