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Mark Sider

Heather
« on: November 06, 2015, 11:03:45 PM »
It's great fun seeing clips of Seve, Jack, and Watson slashing through the wispy browned grass well off the fairway advancing the ball significant yardages in British Opens to make great recovery saves. I love heather! Yet in my opinion so many courses get heather wrong. Thick heather slows down play, prevents come back shots, and sucks the fun out of making a great save. I think heather adds so much to  links and park land courses but it shouldn't take a search party to find your ball. 


Courses that get Heather wrong..... Erin Hills (way too thick, search party, unplayable)
Courses that get this right....... Chicago Golf Club (wispy, thin, chance for recovery)








« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 11:21:41 PM by Mark Sider »

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 11:23:47 PM »
Heather:



Methinks you're talking about grass.

Anyway, I totally agree that finding a way to make tall grass a "playable" obstacle can be a big deal.

The problem is there's virtually no reliable way for a superintendent or greenkeeper to control the density on an everyday basis. When it rains, grass gets tall and dense.

In fact, out here in Kansas, I'd say none of the courses with large areas of the stuff manage to do it.

Even Prairie Dunes has insanely difficult conditions most of the time.

The only course I've played that has the perfect solution is Brora. But not many courses are going to have sheep everywhere. In general Scottish courses seem to have a somewhat better handle on it, maybe because they're willing to cut it back and start over.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 11:25:39 PM »
Wispy brown grass is not heather. Heather is a shrub-like plant. No one who has hit a shot out of heather would describe it as thin or wispy.

Alan Ritchie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 11:36:31 PM »
yeah heather can be a bloody nightmare to hit out of. always makes me think of muir of ord up in the highlands with multiple short holes flanked by the stuff. looks pretty good at sunningdale too but are there any open venues with heather in play?

David_Tepper

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Re: Heather
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2015, 12:19:55 AM »
Mark S. -

You could be confusing heather with fescue grass.

DT

Michael Goldstein

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Re: Heather
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 01:43:21 AM »
Agree David,

Makes me wonder Is there much heather on the open rota?

There's a patch left of 10 on TOC. I can't m think of any other places off the top of my head?
@Pure_Golf

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015, 02:37:48 AM »
Far too much heather on links and parkland courses. Mark I played Chicago Golf last month and confirm their whispy fescue isn't heather.
Cave Nil Vino

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015, 03:22:27 AM »
Are confusing long grass or gorse with heather?
Heather is what you get on heathland, thus the name.  That low lying woody ground cover that has lovely purple flowers and grows on the sandy acidic soils around London and other heaths.  Not sure I have seen a lot of heather on a links. 

That higher standing prickly shit with the yellow flowers is Gorse.

Paul Gray

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Re: Heather
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2015, 03:47:56 AM »
Americans call some sort of long grass heather. Heather is in fact a woody like ground plant with vivid purple flowering. Heath = heather land. See tours of Sunningdale, Swinley Forest etc.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Tim Gallant

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Re: Heather
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2015, 04:03:53 AM »
Americans call some sort of long grass heather. Heather is in fact a woody like ground plant with vivid purple flowering. Heath = heather land. See tours of Sunningdale, Swinley Forest etc.


Correct - if you have ever played Walton Heath, they have a mixture of high fescue and heather. Heather can be absolutely debilitating to hit from, and at points, outright unplayable. Agree with the first post though that wispy fescue is ideal, however, often this is dictated by weather - at least in the UK. Each winter, the playable areas where high fescue could featured, are cut back. It then just depends on the levels of precipitation that a course gets, which can dictate thickness.


Sean_A

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Re: Heather
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2015, 04:52:06 AM »
I think more than weather dictates the whispiness of rough.  I am convinced that clubs water rough as a coincidence of water systems operating in windy weather, breakdowns in controls, water feeding downhill etc.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2015, 04:56:34 AM »
I think more than weather dictates the whispiness of rough.  I am convinced that clubs water rough as a coincidence of water systems operating in windy weather, breakdowns in controls, water feeding downhill etc.


Ciao


Thanks Sean - I was thinking, are there tools that courses can use to influence thickness of fescue during the season? Possibly not cutting things back all together, but a way to lighten out the high fescue slightly to increase playability in case it becomes too wild?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2015, 05:10:39 AM »
I think more than weather dictates the whispiness of rough.  I am convinced that clubs water rough as a coincidence of water systems operating in windy weather, breakdowns in controls, water feeding downhill etc.


Ciao


Thanks Sean - I was thinking, are there tools that courses can use to influence thickness of fescue during the season? Possibly not cutting things back all together, but a way to lighten out the high fescue slightly to increase playability in case it becomes too wild?


Not really during the season. It is a multi year process. You have to keep the soil feritility as low as possible, when you cut it in the autumn you have to be sure to remove the clippings, which will otherwise decay and add fertility. And for best effect you have to thin with a flail during the winter. Lots of links are prohibited by law from mowing the rough until a certain date. I did a piece a couple of years ago with Royal Dublin about their rough management efforts, they had the best tall and thin links rough I had ever seen. It looked great but finding your ball was dead easy
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 05:16:15 AM »
I think more than weather dictates the whispiness of rough.  I am convinced that clubs water rough as a coincidence of water systems operating in windy weather, breakdowns in controls, water feeding downhill etc.


Ciao


Thanks Sean - I was thinking, are there tools that courses can use to influence thickness of fescue during the season? Possibly not cutting things back all together, but a way to lighten out the high fescue slightly to increase playability in case it becomes too wild?


Not really during the season. It is a multi year process. You have to keep the soil feritility as low as possible, when you cut it in the autumn you have to be sure to remove the clippings, which will otherwise decay and add fertility. And for best effect you have to thin with a flail during the winter. Lots of links are prohibited by law from mowing the rough until a certain date. I did a piece a couple of years ago with Royal Dublin about their rough management efforts, they had the best tall and thin links rough I had ever seen. It looked great but finding your ball was dead easy


Thanks Adam - I was unaware of laws prohibiting some links from mowing until a certain date. Great to know. Do you have a link to your article on Royal Dublin? I would love to give it a read.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2015, 05:53:12 AM »
I was about to refer you to Adam's excellent article but he seems to have already jumped, shamefully, on the self publicity train.  ;D

Adam, I really am just messing. I remember the article as I thought it particularly interesting.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 07:18:24 AM »
Here's the article.


http://http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Course-management-Waving-not-drowning-at-Royal-Dublin/2956/Default.aspx#.Vj3qD2IgGSM


Paul, I try hard not to go over the top in self-publicity terms. But I realised some tine ago that if you don't blow your own trumpet, no one is going to do it for you  :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2015, 08:15:25 AM »
There is a lot of Heather at Alwoodley.  It was generally findable and recoverable but just barely.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/


Niall C

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Re: Heather
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2015, 09:28:01 AM »
I've been a member at 3 different clubs with links courses and they have al had heather to a greater or less degree. I agree that a thick carpet of the stuff is just a penal slog and is better if it is a bit more sporadic. The club that I am currently a member of is also an Open qualifier and has acres of the stuff flanking most fairways. If you get in that stuff then it is almost always at least a 1 shot penalty and sometimes more.

To add insult to injury the club started having strips of longer fescue between the semi rough and the heather. Initially it was thin and wispy and looked great but as the season went on it became heavier. Fortunately the club has invested in a machine that will deal with that problem and also apparently chops down and thins out the heather without actually taking it out altogether.

Niall

Bill_McBride

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Re: Heather
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2015, 09:37:55 AM »
I recall the heather at Liphook, Hankley Common and New Zealand being thick and strong enough to injure yourself trying to gouge out of it.  That puts a high premium on accurate driving!

Mark Sider

Re: Heather
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2015, 10:23:40 AM »
Heather isn't the correct word choice. It seems the correct term is fescue. My point was that I feel courses are better served when this long links style grass is more thin and playable than thick. I hope courses can find ways to manage this because it increases the enjoyment and speeds up play. 

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2015, 10:49:07 AM »
To call the tall grass at a place like Erin Hills fescue is an oversimplification.  I have been in that stuff (and similar tall grass at other courses in the midwest) and there are all sorts of different grass and flower varieties in there. 


That is the first problem.  As I understand it from my Super buddies, fine fescue (which is what you want to play out of Mark) requires the kind of soil that Adam described - sandy, low nutrient - to remain in that playable state, and to not have to compete with all those other thicker grasses.  That is not what we have in this area, for the most part.  So, even if fine fescue is planted, it has a tendency to get out-competed by other grass types that thrive in a less sandy soil.  Designing a course as a links (or simply calling it a links) does not necessarily mean that it is built on the right kind of soil for playable fescue grass.


The second problem is along the lines of what Adam described.  To keep it thin and whispy, it has to be cut with special machinery, and for some sites, those areas need to be regularly top-dressed with sand.  Especially given the size of those tall grass areas on some courses, that is cost prohibitive to do.


Curtis at Old Elm has done a really nice job of creating playable fescue areas, as has Eric at Essex County.  They are beautiful and fun.  However, to hear them describe what they have to go through to maintain those areas, it is not a surprise that most courses just decide to go with the look (which is also nice) and not worry about the playability.


That is what I have been able to pick up on the subject. t.  Adam, any Supers on here, or GCAs, please correct any of the above that isn't quite right. 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 10:52:20 AM by Jason Way »
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Adam Lawrence

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« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 12:23:20 PM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2015, 12:35:11 PM »
Assuming we're now actually talking about real fescue, this is a good example of where a desire to dictate to nature what is or isn't possibly at any given site is a recipe for disaster. You can't grow fescue in a swimming pool. You can't grow water lilies in the dessert. You can manage soil but you can't tell it what to do. Surely one of the biggest mistakes of 80's and 90's GCA was the arrogant belief of humankind that we could beat nature, that the ODG's philosophy of working with what you had was part of yesterday's limitations.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 12:36:57 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heather
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2015, 02:10:11 PM »
To clarify, I'm talking Heather, not Fescue.

Here's some of the Heather at Alwoodley.

I'm still having recurring nightmares about the Fescue at Muirfield!   :o

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/