[MCirba]

I had the great privilege of playing Royal Lytham and St. Anne's last month and as a big fan of the history of railroads and golf courses I was really looking forward to see the integration of form and function, such that it were, particularly in the "out" going holes on the front nine.   My imagination had been stoked by photos like the first of the 8th hole below, from a 1970s book titled, "Great Golf Courses of the World".




Indeed, even in the most recent version of "World Atlas of Golf" from a few years back there is a color photo showing much the same thing, with that lovely (if terrifying from a golfer's point of view) and formidable straight line boundary accented by the tracks running parallel and the sense of place evidenced by the brick houses throughout the community.

So, it was with a bit of chagrin and disappointment that I came upon the following;




While I'm sure there are practical reasons for this, most likely involving safety and liability, I have to question the purpose.   The course is well over 100 years old and my assumption is that the railroad has been there at least as long.   I'm uncertain why 100+ plus years into existence such a thing is necessary.   

It certainly deflates from the look of the hole as well as the sense of place.    As Bob Huntley might say, "tis a pity".

[John Percival]

Also, notice how the bunkers have been visually 'tamed'.

Looks like a very cool (and difficult) hole.

Do you have more pics?
As the one above is outstanding

[Bill_McBride]

Sad but true that rail lines have been removed all over the world.  The Old Course right of the homeward fairways.  Closer to home, there was once a rail line straight across the 18th fairway at Pensacola Country Club, now the 17th corridor.  The rails were long gone when I arrived twenty years ago, but you could see and feel the slight depression where the rails were laid.   The rails ran from the Port of Pensacola to NAS Pensacola.  I can just imagine golfers impatiently waiting for the tracks to clear!   The rails were removed in the 1950's. 

[Niall C]

Bill


I'm not sure that Mike is suggesting the rail line has been removed, which I'm pretty sure it hasn't (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). I think he was disappointed at the look of the trees as well as the different nature that it gives the boundary. I have some sympathy with that in so much as I think there is something magical about the odd straight lined boundary as Mike refers to it, being thrown in their to strike some fear into the golfer.


Against this is the relentless beautification of courses which again I have some sympathy with. If you ever travel on suburban rail lines in this country you will note how adjoining householders who back on to rail lines, and sometimes commercial owners as well, happily chuck all manner of things over the fence on to rail embankments thereby creating an eye sore.


Not sure if that is the issue here but suspect it might be more of reason than any safety grounds.


Niall

[GLawson]

You have to give the club a little credit for letting the trees grow in.    Especially since there are countless reviews citing RLSA as the ugliest Open venue.  It is an incredible course and continues to be so with or without the trees.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

One of my favorite ASGCA memories is playing that hole with Denis Griffiths and Bob Cupp.  We all had our cameras hanging from the trolley to photo the course, but as a train whizzed by, we all took pictures of it.  It turns out we had a threesome of combo golf course architect/rail fans/model railroaders.  We look at each other and ask if the others are train guys, too.  Big laugh.  As near I know, we are the only three members of that exclusive fraternity.

Like you, if it was me, I would always recommend keeping the trains in view, but I understand how others might feel differently.  But even for non rail fans, if one of the points of architecture is to make each hole unique, I would say seeing tracks rather than trees would give that hole a leg up on distinction and memorability.

[MCirba]

Thanks, John....

I do indeed have a number of pics from my trip and when time permits I need to download them from my phone to my computer en masse.   I think you'll enjoy some of them from Lytham as it's a terrific golf course with incredible bunkering.   

Indeed, while the bunkers are a bit tidier looking in most places than in the 70s, most are still rather terrifying and incredibly deep.   For instance, the left side fairway bunker on #6 and #8 were towering.  I'm 6'3" and they both towered well over me.

I also trust my playing companion (and fellow GCA'er) won't mind if I show his trials from the front left-greenside bunker on that hole.   Both of us inevitably spent some soul-trying moments in that one.



Indeed, the 8th hole at Lytham is one of the most difficult, if not THE most difficult we encountered on our trip.   It isn't the least bit fair, and we found that to be wonderful.

[MCirba]

Bill/Niall,

Yes, you're correct that I'm bemoaning the trees replacing that hard boundary fence/rail/adjacent housing view which is/was ultra cool and nearly unique.   The train track is still there and we witnessed a number of trains passing by during the round, thankfully, albeit through the trees.

Gordon,

That was the only downside, albeit an aesthetic one, to a course where high expectations were considerably exceeded.  How anyone can call Lytham ugly is beyond me.

Jeff,

I know you are a train history connoisseur so glad you jumped in here.   There are lots of holes around the world that are tree lined but very few offering such stark relief, sense of place, and stunning intimidation as the original look of this hole.

[MCirba]

Here is the terrifying left-side fairway bunker on the 8th hole at Lytham.

I managed to miss the bunker on the tee shot but found my ball in the high grasses above it.

From there I mistakenly tried to reach the green.

It wasn't very pretty after that.

[Jon Wiggett]

I too am perplexed at the derision RLSA gets on here. It is a great links course which plays as it should. Mike, the station is still used to ferry people in and out when the Open is played there which I think is a cool way to arrive at a course as a spectator.

The bunkers have lost there imposing look due to the wall to wall mowing.

Jon

[Pete Lavallee]

The bunkers at RLSA are wonderfully gathering, because the approaches are mowed to fairway height. It was impressive watching the large three wheeled fairway mowers turning around those bunkers; they seemingly defies gravity. It made me wonder if they ever tip over!

[ward peyronnin]

I posted this opinion on another thread and do not serve it up as a manifesto but another perspective for discussion both ways.  It does not make RLSA a "bad" golf course mostly one I don't see the charm of. The other course  i reference is Victoria National.

"At least it  has the above going for it as opposed to  a place that is just boorishly hard. After attending the Walker Cup at Lytham my thoughts turned to playing that course made so hard and awkward by the repeatative appearance of 200+ plus nasty bad lie bunkers. It is not nearly as well turned as VN and imagine playing there 3plus times a week and suffering 8-to 10 impossible minimum one stroke penalty bunker shots week in and week out. I want to start a thread on this topic later."

So is it fair to say that for some RLSA over relies on punitive bunkers for its defining character? That the final set holes largely lack character being very flat platforms with extreme bunkering and the home particularly pedestrian ? It is arguably a  links like course as it is not remotely near the water so no style points there. And this may be irrelevant but also may support that last stmnt. Talking to a member he offered that holding a major tourney was not an imposition as it had occasioned extensive improvement schemes primarily for drainage as in the winters past fairways and bunkers held so much standing water that locals pushed casual water relief to the fullest and relief was taken from waterlogged bunkers with no penalty.

So I see you guys are fans; help me out. BTW I LIKE seeing all the stuff rather than the trees along the RR Lines and I saw several errant balls knocked back down by them during competition

[MCirba]

Ward,

Resisting a direct comparison to VN which I've not played, your comments about Lytham certainly seem to be valid and shared by some.   I recall a US magazine referring to it years back as "England's Oakmont", likely in reference to its somewhat humorless, generally penal nature.

I'll try to support my arguments better as time permits but what I most enjoyed about the course is that it did allow me to play within myself and skip by the graveyard for the most part, if you catch my drift.   However, when I tried something a little outside of my comfort zone I had to either pull off a near perfect shot or face certain indignity and difficult recovery.   So, in that regard it very much rewarded smart, thoughtful play.

In addition, I thought it offered great variety in terms of hole lengths, and a creative routing that while largely out and back changed directions enough to keep things variable in terms of the influence and direction of the wind.

As far as the water issues, my understanding is that they were the result of problems downstream (yes, apparently a burn runs right through Lytham though largely undected and out of play) that have since been corrected that were also causing backup and havoc at neighboring Fairhaven.   

The turf had a nice springy bounce during our round, even though it's been a generally wet summer and autumn in Great Britain.

[MCirba]

Just for fun before the weekend, one more before and after picture from another course on our travels.

"Great Golf Courses of the World" was a book my dad got me as a kid so I probably looked at the before photos about 1000 times each over the years and it was a dream come true to walk in those footsteps.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ward,

did you actually play RLSA?

I agree it is not the most visually exciting of golf courses if you judge it by surrounding views but then it should be about the golf course. RLSA is an absolute beast if played off the backs but then if you are stupid enough to do that then you get what you ask for. If played from the members tees it is a real fun course full of character and diverse in challenge. Quirky par 3 start which I think is unique for a major hosting course it has a great set of par 3. On a narrow site it changes its direction multiple times. It has flat areas and some decent sized dunes. The finishing straight is one of the best in golf with the tough 15th requiring two strong shots, birdie chance 16th, blind 2nd shot 17th and the fabulous grandstand finish 18th with clubhouse just a couple of feet from the putting surface.

Staying in the dormy house whilst playing the course is one of the golfing experiences everyone should try at least once. If you have played the course, played it from the correct tees and still do not get the course that does not make the course any less great than it is just that you do not get it. It is a shame that just because you do not understand its greatness you feel the need to slate it.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Lytham relies almost exclusively on bunkering for its interest...which makes it rather less interesting in my eyes. 


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I disagree Sean.

It is also very good at requiring you to be on the correct side of the fairway which often alters depending on the pin position. Semi and completely blindness comes into the mix on several holes. It has a very strong set of par 3s. Demanding tee shots on the 5's if you try to get home in two. Excellent contouring on the putting surfaces. The bunkering is very good though it could lose quite a few. One of the best finishing holes in golf.

I get the feeling that many underrate it because it does not have the great views.

Jon

[Sean_A]

There aren't many holes at Lytham where many golfers can choose a side of fairway...its mostly about find a fairway or else.  For me, the variety is very sorely lacking which is why the hole pictured above stands out so much on the course.  For a great many holes its much of a muchness. 


Ciao 

[Richard Fisher]

This thread does raise the issue, which may reflect the British experience more than the American, that 'external agencies' (local councils, planning committees, conservation bodies, railway companies) can have a considerable impact on the playing conditions of courses, regardless of whether the facility is private or public, or whether the club owns the freehold of the land over which they play. I am 95% certain that the trees to the right of the 8th at Lytham would indeed have been planted in response to discussions with the council and/or the former British Rail (or both), as they have been at similarly exposed locations (whether facing rail or road or property) around the British Isles: the newish lines of trees on the right of the 6th and 14th fairways at Huntercombe reflect precisely this situation, and I am 95% certain that (sadly) most readers of GCA would feel that these admittedly smallish clumps don't add to the playing or visual experience. At Harlech, the 3rd was once (as in the days of Patric Dickinson) a straight hole with a kink at the very end, with houses all the way about the right side: about 40 years ago the RStD Club was forced to replace the roof of a property to the right of the drive, and to put in two fairway bunkers moving the whole teeshot to the left. Otherwise, no 3rd hole. I personally agree with Sean Arble that such external intervention is quite legitimate, where public safety is involved, regardless of the antiquity of the links, but it won't always be in the best interests of golf course architecture per se.

This public scrutiny is particularly intensive in the UK for those clubs sitting in nature conversancy areas, or Sites of Special Scientific Interest, and means that tasks as basic as grading and cutting the rough are subject to constant external negotiation: at Harlech major rough-cutting is only permitted once a year, for the main fairway surrounds, resulting (as in the wet summer of 2015) in a depth and thickness of rough that is simply too extreme for the great majority of golfers. So when GCA commenters occasionally complain about 'absurd' rough or very overtight fairways, the situation may not (indeed often is not) the direct responsibility of the clubs themselves.

PS  My own personal estimate of RLSA went up about 100% as a result of attending the recent Walker Cup: a profound test of golf.

[Jon Wiggett]

There aren't many holes at Lytham where many golfers can choose a side of fairway...its mostly about find a fairway or else.  For me, the variety is very sorely lacking which is why the hole pictured above stands out so much on the course.  For a great many holes its much of a muchness. 


Ciao

Sean,

admittedly it has been a good 15 years since I last play RLSA but the fairways must have narrowed a lot for your assertion to be correct. If that is the case then it is a shame.

Jon

[MCirba]

The.fairways were ample if challenging and the rough quite playable, particularly in contrast to some others we played such as Muirfield.

[Niall C]

Ward

I read your comments as being that courses should be designed/built to suit your game rather than you adapting your game to suit the challenge of a particular course. To my way of thinking that attitude leads to wide open courses which in trying to cater for the unthinking/smash it as hard as you can type golfer that are generally insipid and lack interest in repeat play. I'd much rather have a course that challenges even if on occasion I fail that challenge.

Niall

[Pete Lavallee]

Mike,

Don't forget there is also a public footpath across the 8th fairway; the trees surely make it safer for both the railway line and the walkers.

We stayed in the Dormie house for three days and played twice just before the course closed for two weeks for the Walker Cup. Just an amazing experience. My wife was amazed that she was just missing the bunkers and had only been in one up to the 15th, sadly she found four in the last for holes. I found 6 in my first round and five the next day. On the second day I asked a member in front of us if he had ever gone around without hitting a single bunker. He thought for a moment and then said " you know in over 40 years of playing there that had never happened!" I must disagree with Ward though, they are all escapable with the correct technique, unless you are unlucky enough to be right up against those steep revetted faces!

[ward peyronnin]

Not at all Niall

What I am saying is that I question a course being touted as great when it principaly relies on an overtly dominant feature to define its playing character and strategy. Would most of us on this site elevate a course that requires countless carries over water features to make ALL fairways or greens? I think not. Moreover the penalty for failing to negotiate the bunkers at Lytham are more often than not very very awkward and difficult bunker shots that the average golfer will struggle with. Encountering those kinds of shots multiple times over weeks of play would wear me down.

Jon is right I don't get it. I have yet to read specific reasons why this course is great or the 18th hole is great or there are a solid set of 3's and 5's. I ask what is great about a dead straightaway long par three with an unremarkable green as a memorable handshake. What is great about a flat par four finishing at the base of the clubhouse with a blank door looking at you; go to Wallesy to see a great finishing hole against a clubhouse where the membership had the foresight to incorporate a viewing gallery. What is great about the first few and last few holes that are either subtle or unremarkable depending on your feelings about the course except for the bunkering.

I do not feel like i insist a course suit my game to appreciate it. I have played over 250 courses in at least 11 countries and have posted here for 15 years. I just don;t get it nor do I see how, after tramping the course over 15 hours of Walker Cup play it is a fun place to play day in and day out. Give me Formby anyday.

[ward peyronnin]

And Niall if you imply I require the course you describe come play Victoria National where i play as a member

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