News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Patrick_Mucci

What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« on: November 05, 2015, 07:28:43 AM »
Couldn't or wouldn't be built today ?

And WHY ?
Logged

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 07:33:28 AM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on November 05, 2015, 07:28:43 AM
Couldn't or wouldn't be built today ?

And WHY ?


Are we discounting zoning and environmental issues? Going for architecture alone right?
Logged

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 08:04:44 AM »
Keith,
 
That was the intent, but, let's bifurcate it into two categories, with "architectural" or "taste" being one of them
Logged

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 08:22:37 AM »
I actually can't find anything to date the hole, but if the 13th at North Berwick is attributed to Ben Sayers, then I would say that hole absolutely. Why? I am sure the pro would say it was unfair and creates a semi-blind approach. Still brilliant though.
Logged

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 04:20:23 PM »
2, 3, and 16 at NGLA
pity


Whatever happened to delayed gratification?
to say nothing of uncertainty and judgement




« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 05:12:39 PM by jeffwarne »
Logged
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Golden Age"
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 06:41:31 PM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on November 05, 2015, 04:20:23 PM
2, 3, and 16 at NGLA
pity



Sahara, Alps and Punch Bowl, correct?


With the proper owner, anything is viable. All three of these, to a degree, were included on E-I-E-I-O. I'll say that the Sahara at Old Mac is better than the NGLA one, but I can't imagine anything topping the Alps at NGLA. The Punch Bowl, too.


I'm thinking that many holes at a course like Astoria (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Astoria+Country+Club/@46.1031686,-123.9270793,711m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x5493610dd6c61f29:0x956a40fc9fc83678) couldn't be built today, as the fairways are valleys with little width. Superintendents might balk at the frequency of divots in the limited drive zones.
Logged
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2015, 07:17:12 PM »
Possibly, the entire Indian Creek course and surrounding properties.  366 acre island built from scratch.
Logged
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2015, 07:34:04 PM »
Quote from: JNagle on November 05, 2015, 07:17:12 PM
Possibly, the entire Indian Creek course and surrounding properties.  366 acre island built from scratch.


Nope, that has been tried in the last few years!
Logged

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2015, 07:57:39 PM »
All the par-3 opening holes. (Most of the good examples are in the UK)


Cypress and Stanford #1 with the opening tee shots crossing a road. Many of the other great holes that cross roads. National's for example would not have a good chance of making it into a final routing.



Logged

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2015, 08:20:04 PM »
Pat,


I wonder if Cypress Point could ever get permitted.
Logged
Tim Weiman

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2015, 09:02:59 PM »
"Sahara, Alps and Punch Bowl, correct?"
 
The Stevinson Ranch Golf Course in California (designed by John Harbottle with help from owner George Kelly) was built no more than 20-25 years ago with an Alps hole. Sadly, the course fell victim to the drought out here and closed earlier this year.
Logged

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2015, 09:39:29 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on November 05, 2015, 09:02:59 PM
"Sahara, Alps and Punch Bowl, correct?"
 
The Stevinson Ranch Golf Course in California (designed by John Harbottle with help from owner George Kelly) was built no more than 20-25 years ago with an Alps hole. Sadly, the course fell victim to the drought out here and closed earlier this year.


I've thought about that "Alps" hole and concluded that it's really not one because the approach shot is not steeply uphill and there's no fronting bunker to complete the template.  I think it's more a Pete Dye template, the one with the big artificial mound between you and the green, with a bit of the green visible to one side or the other. 
Logged

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2015, 09:53:26 PM »
Quote from: Tim_Weiman on November 05, 2015, 08:20:04 PM
Pat,
I wonder if Cypress Point could ever get permitted.


Will we ask the same question in thirty years about Bandon, Sand Valley, Cabot, et al.?



Logged
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2015, 04:19:15 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on November 05, 2015, 09:02:59 PM
"Sahara, Alps and Punch Bowl, correct?"
 
The Stevinson Ranch Golf Course in California (designed by John Harbottle with help from owner George Kelly) was built no more than 20-25 years ago with an Alps hole. Sadly, the course fell victim to the drought out here and closed earlier this year.


I've seen quite a few Alps holes that could be built today.
Doubt anyone would have the chutzpah to build one like 3 at NGLA though-That's a serious hill-makes the original look like downright
"all out in front of you" ;D ;D
Logged
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2015, 05:34:07 PM »
Is it fair to say that "blind" holes have fallen out of favor with today's golfer ?
 
That there's an inherent bias against "blindness".
 
Line of sight range finders certainly don't work ?
 
"Blind" shots make the golfer very uncomfortable.
 
NGLA is an anomaly that works magnificently despite the abundance of blindness.
 
You can have a blind shot on about 15 holes at NGLA.
 
Doubtful that you could get away with that when designing a course today.
 
What other features/situations have fallen out of favor with today's golfer ?
Logged

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2015, 05:40:34 PM »
Pat,


Do you think the Nickel & Dime hole at Ridgewood would be built today?


Cheers, Mike
Logged

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2015, 06:36:47 PM »
Quote from: Mike Policano on November 06, 2015, 05:40:34 PM

Pat,

Do you think the Nickel & Dime hole at Ridgewood would be built today?
 
Mike,
 
That's a great question.
 
I think the answer lies in several areas.
 
Who's the intended end user, private or public ?
 
Who's the developer ?
 
Who's the architect ?
 
My guess,  NO, I don't think that great little hole would be built today for a variety of reasons, with "fairness"  being one of them.



Cheers, Mike
Logged

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2015, 06:56:10 PM »
Its not great and not golden age, but would anyone rebuild the 17th at Sawgrass today without fear of being labelled a troglodyte throwback to the dark ages?
Logged

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2015, 07:10:13 PM »
Quote from: Mike Policano on November 06, 2015, 05:40:34 PM
Pat,


Do you think the Nickel & Dime hole at Ridgewood would be built today?


Cheers, Mike


I was thinking that same thing. I think you could do it, but it would be slightly altered for maintenance in most situations. It will be in my bank for potential inspiration, with a few other Tillinghast holes.



Logged

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2015, 08:58:32 PM »
I can't  see a modern architect building Crystal Downs #5 or Old Town Club #5.  Similar par 4s from the tee, requiring a drive over 3 side hill bunkers.  Fairway not to be seen and titled away from you.
Logged
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2015, 09:36:36 PM »
Oakmont #1
Logged
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2015, 11:55:59 PM »
Quote from: Jackson C on November 06, 2015, 09:36:36 PM
Oakmont #1
 
Straight away downhill par 4 with a green that follows the natural terrain, why wouldn't it be built today ?
Logged

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2015, 07:23:03 AM »
Elevated blind longish approach for most to a green sloping severely front to back.   Great hole but extremely difficult.  Nearly impossible to hold the green on the approach and it's the first hole to boot.
Logged
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2015, 07:33:06 AM »
7 and 11 at Shinnecock wouldn't be built today, or 10 for that matter.
Modern versions might be but they would be neutered due to "pinnable area" and fairness
Logged
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What great holes from the "Goden Age"
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2015, 08:18:49 AM »
Pat,


Isn't it interesting that a hole like Nickel & Dime wouldn't be built again. It is an uphill 290 yard par 4 with very good fairway bunkering and a sloping, curving fairway. One of golf's tiniest greens sits up on the hill surrounded by bunkers.


Members love it, guests can't wait to play it and the pros in the Barclays have fun with it. The PGA Tour broadcasts that one hole all day for each Barclays at Ridgewood.


And yet, it wouldn't be built again. And since 1929 hasn't been built again?



Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up