[James Brown]

Is there a common measure for fairway speed?  (Does anyone stump fairways?)


I live in Washington, DC and we had a moderately dry summer.  Nothing special. 



Pinehurst was pretty darn firm this summer, even with their greenness and watering.  I might normally hit a tee shot 245 at home on a flat level hole and there it was like 265 or more.   In northern Scotland in August the same shot went about the same or maybe a little less because they had a wet one. 


I played a course in Denver City in West Texas many years ago where I hit a tee shot 385 on hard pan on a dead flat hole downwind.  Rolled 150 yards.  That might be tops for me all time. 


I think my ideal would be tee shots that run out 30 yards on a fairly standard 12 degree launch and 98 mph club head speed that carries 225 ish.  In other words not a worm burner and not a hit and stick shot. 

[jeffwarne]

Fairways are definitely getting tighter and the grass getting shorter (i.e. a higher stimp -if one were to do such a heinous thing to a fairway )
Doesn't mean they are getting faster unless you're simply putting on them
Like modern super fast greens, often the roll speed is offset and even completely undermined by a soft bounce due to the moisture required to keep grass so short.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think they've stimped fairways at Opens before though they'd never release the numbers. I recall St Andrews 2005 where a couple of very well connected people announced the fairways were running faster than the greens.


Generally speaking, anywhere that doesn't have fairway irrigation (which is a good proportion of UK courses) in a hot, dry summer.

[Jon Wiggett]

A lower height of cut generally lead to softer fairways. I think that 15mm to 18mm for most inland courses is fine then you can leave the fairway to really dry out. Is there an ideal firmness? Generally you can never get a fairway too dry or firm in the UK.

Jon

[Josh Stevens]

I played a game at Rye in August about 10 years ago.  The course was basically dead and the fairways were about as firm and fast as the road.  The secretary commented that no members had been out for a few weeks as it was simply impossible to play.

[Adam Lawrence]

I played a game at Rye in August about 10 years ago.  The course was basically dead and the fairways were about as firm and fast as the road.  The secretary commented that no members had been out for a few weeks as it was simply impossible to play.

It wasn't dead, Josh, it was dormant. That's what fescue does when it gets hot and dry. Couple of good rains and it's green again. The battle to convince clubs to allow their courses to dry out properly isn't helped by people saying they're dead.

[Tom Kelly]

Generally you can never get a fairway too dry or firm in the UK.

Not sure I agree with this. Maybe so on sand based courses but on clay especially when it gets hard it can become like hitting onto concrete and you end up with ridiculous completely unpredictable crazy bounces all over the place which is no fun at all.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

I have played a lot of golf in the UK in all conditions and I have never come across a situation where the course was not fun to play due to hard ground even when the ground was frozen and really like concrete it was still fun.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Pretty much agree with Jon on this. I would make two points though: firstly, when clay gets super dry cracks can open and balls disappear down them, and secondly, when the ground is super dry, thin blades are a better choice than wide flange cavity backs IMO.
Atb

[Paul Gray]

I played a game at Rye in August about 10 years ago.  The course was basically dead and the fairways were about as firm and fast as the road.  The secretary commented that no members had been out for a few weeks as it was simply impossible to play.

It wasn't dead, Josh, it was dormant. That's what fescue does when it gets hot and dry. Couple of good rains and it's green again. The battle to convince clubs to allow their courses to dry out properly isn't helped by people saying they're dead.

Very well said.

It seems to be a very common misunderstanding which defies all logic. If it really were dead, how would anyone explain it 'magically' coming back to life every September?

[James Brown]

A lower height of cut generally lead to softer fairways. I think that 15mm to 18mm for most inland courses is fine then you can leave the fairway to really dry out. Is there an ideal firmness? Generally you can never get a fairway too dry or firm in the UK.

Jon

I never knew this was true.  Explains so much about mud collection on close cut fairways, which I always thought was counterintuitive. 

[James Brown]

I played a game at Rye in August about 10 years ago.  The course was basically dead and the fairways were about as firm and fast as the road.  The secretary commented that no members had been out for a few weeks as it was simply impossible to play.

It wasn't dead, Josh, it was dormant. That's what fescue does when it gets hot and dry. Couple of good rains and it's green again. The battle to convince clubs to allow their courses to dry out properly isn't helped by people saying they're dead.

Having never played Rye, it impresses me that so much of the feedback on the course is about the firmness of the fairways.  Is that typical of courses in that part of England?

[Adam Lawrence]

I played a game at Rye in August about 10 years ago.  The course was basically dead and the fairways were about as firm and fast as the road.  The secretary commented that no members had been out for a few weeks as it was simply impossible to play.

It wasn't dead, Josh, it was dormant. That's what fescue does when it gets hot and dry. Couple of good rains and it's green again. The battle to convince clubs to allow their courses to dry out properly isn't helped by people saying they're dead.

Having never played Rye, it impresses me that so much of the feedback on the course is about the firmness of the fairways.  Is that typical of courses in that part of England?

James, Rye is famous as a place that gets incredibly firm in summer. It has never had fairway watering (though I did hear tell that some was being installed) and that part of south-east England has a very, very dry climate, by a distance the driest in these Isles. Thus if it doesn't rain for six weeks, which is not that uncommon in summer, the course gets no water. As a result, and because Rye's membership is largely non-resident, it has a reputation as a winter course, exacerbated by the fact that Rye is best known as the host of the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society's annual President's Putter event, which happens each January.


I've never played Deal, Sandwich, Prince's or Littlestone (the other links in the vicinity) when they've been really really baked out. I think each has fairway watering, so getting that dry would be dependent on the course manager keeping the water turned off despite a long period of hot, dry weather.

[Ryan Coles]

Baked clay can be pretty miserable to play off.


Harder the better is not always best I don't think. I still prefer some grass.


Two places that stick in my mind for quality of fairway turf close to my optimum would be RSG and Brora = tight, but with some grass. Very firm, but not jarring to hit a shot from.

[Tom Kelly]

Tom,

I have played a lot of golf in the UK in all conditions and I have never come across a situation where the course was not fun to play due to hard ground even when the ground was frozen and really like concrete it was still fun.

Jon

I grew up playing most of my golf on inland clay based courses without fairway irrigation and in dry spells the clay could often become baked hard and crack. When this happens you can often get some completely uncontrollable and unpredictable bounces, it becomes a pinball lottery. What can exacerbate the problem is greens which are irrigated playing softer making the transition through the approach drastically different, pitch a ball on the approach and bounce through the back or land on the front of the green and stop. When on parkland courses that often aren't really designed for running approaches either and it becomes extremely frustrating if you are playing a competitive game.


I am not against hard courses that you can run the ball on but like anything some common sense is needed at times.

[Thomas Dai]

Like Tom I played a fair amount of golf in my youth on unirrigated clay fairways so understand the point about rock hard fairways with cracks and erratic bounces. That combination may be a bit more playable though than soft fairways and rock hard greens, which is a pretty difficult combination to play.
Atb

[Matt Dawson]

Adam is correct, there is indeed now fairway watering at Rye. But as for using it...well that's another matter entirely

The feel of striking a long iron purely from an ultra-tight fairway lie there is surely one of the most joyous shots in golf. I certainly can't think of a higher tariff shot that gives more satisfaction...or room for humiliation equally 

Interestingly as the years have passed and extra land has built up with movement of tides, the opening fairways have naturally moved further away from the sea and have lost a little of their fiery links-like nature. Certainly the old photos show the water coming right up to a couple of greens, which are now a long way away. But on the plus side, the new Jubilee holes that we have inherited as a result are very good. Who knows, in another 100 years there might be room for 54 holes 

[Sam Andrews]

I've never played Deal, Sandwich, Prince's or Littlestone (the other links in the vicinity) when they've been really really baked out. I think each has fairway watering, so getting that dry would be dependent on the course manager keeping the water turned off despite a long period of hot, dry weather.



Adam,
I don't believe Littlestone has fairway watering and, therefore, is drier than the others, so you can enjoy watching your ball skitter off and disappear in its jungle-like rough!
Rye does have fairway watering but once the new grass is properly established it will be used sparingly, I am told. In addition, now that the sea has retreated, the wind does not blow sand across the old course fairways any more, so hundreds of tons of sand is being spread to replicate their old character. Fortunately, Rye has its own supply of beach sand.


Sam

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

I completely agree with you that bare hard baked clay is miserable but any greenkeeper worth their salt would raise the height of cut long before that happened. Thus there should be a good bit of grass to play from. I agree also with your assessment of the quality of the turf at Brora which was great when I played it on a perfect late summer day this year with Boony. One thing to remember is that with the links sward they achieve a close, tight cut feel to fairways but I suspect the HOC is 16mm-18mm so more medium height.

Tom,

I think the issue you have is more with the cracking rather than the firmness. Just out of interest what part of the UK did you grow up in?

Jon

[BCowan]

Fairways are definitely getting tighter and the grass getting shorter (i.e. a higher stimp -if one were to do such a heinous thing to a fairway )
Doesn't mean they are getting faster unless you're simply putting on them
Like modern super fast greens, often the roll speed is offset and even completely undermined by a soft bounce due to the moisture required to keep grass so short.

Teller of truth

[James Brown]

I played a game at Rye in August about 10 years ago.  The course was basically dead and the fairways were about as firm and fast as the road.  The secretary commented that no members had been out for a few weeks as it was simply impossible to play.

It wasn't dead, Josh, it was dormant. That's what fescue does when it gets hot and dry. Couple of good rains and it's green again. The battle to convince clubs to allow their courses to dry out properly isn't helped by people saying they're dead.

Having never played Rye, it impresses me that so much of the feedback on the course is about the firmness of the fairways.  Is that typical of courses in that part of England?

James, Rye is famous as a place that gets incredibly firm in summer. It has never had fairway watering (though I did hear tell that some was being installed) and that part of south-east England has a very, very dry climate, by a distance the driest in these Isles. Thus if it doesn't rain for six weeks, which is not that uncommon in summer, the course gets no water. As a result, and because Rye's membership is largely non-resident, it has a reputation as a winter course, exacerbated by the fact that Rye is best known as the host of the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society's annual President's Putter event, which happens each January.


I've never played Deal, Sandwich, Prince's or Littlestone (the other links in the vicinity) when they've been really really baked out. I think each has fairway watering, so getting that dry would be dependent on the course manager keeping the water turned off despite a long period of hot, dry weather.

Interesting.  That makes sense on a seasonal basis. 


I have been making an annual trip to Dornoch for several years and this August was the first time I saw course soft.  I know Scotland had a very wet summer but it still amazed me how much different... and less... the experience when links courses are soft.   

[RSantangelo]

This thread raised an interesting question....Based upon weather and course conditions, what would folks say are the best seasonal windows to make trip anchored by a business in London

1.  Southern Links - Royal St George and Rye, others

2.  The Heathland courses - Sunningdale, Walton Heat, others

Each trip would be 2-3 days of golf...many thanks for any thoughts you can share

[Paul Gray]

I played a game at Rye in August about 10 years ago.  The course was basically dead and the fairways were about as firm and fast as the road.  The secretary commented that no members had been out for a few weeks as it was simply impossible to play.

It wasn't dead, Josh, it was dormant. That's what fescue does when it gets hot and dry. Couple of good rains and it's green again. The battle to convince clubs to allow their courses to dry out properly isn't helped by people saying they're dead.

Having never played Rye, it impresses me that so much of the feedback on the course is about the firmness of the fairways.  Is that typical of courses in that part of England?

James, Rye is famous as a place that gets incredibly firm in summer. It has never had fairway watering (though I did hear tell that some was being installed) and that part of south-east England has a very, very dry climate, by a distance the driest in these Isles. Thus if it doesn't rain for six weeks, which is not that uncommon in summer, the course gets no water. As a result, and because Rye's membership is largely non-resident, it has a reputation as a winter course, exacerbated by the fact that Rye is best known as the host of the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society's annual President's Putter event, which happens each January.


I've never played Deal, Sandwich, Prince's or Littlestone (the other links in the vicinity) when they've been really really baked out. I think each has fairway watering, so getting that dry would be dependent on the course manager keeping the water turned off despite a long period of hot, dry weather.

Interesting.  That makes sense on a seasonal basis. 


I have been making an annual trip to Dornoch for several years and this August was the first time I saw course soft.  I know Scotland had a very wet summer but it still amazed me how much different... and less... the experience when links courses are soft.

Quite right. I'm along the south coast at Hayling which, being in the south, has been regarded as Britain's driest golf course before now. Truthbbe told that tag could go to any of the true links courses on the south/south east coast.

Anyway, this year was the greenest I have ever seen, at last from August onwards. It was getting good and hard in July but then everything changed. On the flip side, I didn't have to enter into a battle to get the sprinklers turned off! 

[Neil White]

"I've never played Deal, Sandwich, Prince's or Littlestone (the other links in the vicinity) when they've been really really baked out. I think each has fairway watering, so getting that dry would be dependent on the course manager keeping the water turned off despite a long period of hot, dry weather."

I played both Littlestone and Princes this last July after a period of very dry weather on the Kent coast.

Princes on the whole was green but played relatively firm.

Littlestone was just on the cusp of turning so must've been using irrigation prior to our visit - the following week was forecast for rain.

We found the driest and firmest fairways on Littlestone's Warren course - not unplayable by any stretch of the imagination - with a steady 10 - 15mph wind they required careful clubbing if you weren't to find trouble off the tee - great fun.

My home course, Enville, when the weather plays ball allows the fairways to brown off lovely - couple this with heather lined fairways and the test ramps up a few notches.

See below courtesy of Mr. Arble

[Matt Dawson]

RSantangelo

You asked advice re logistics on a golf/business trip to London - I just sent you a PM to avoid clogging up this thread

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