Norman cuts ties with Medalist GC

[Mike Hendren]

Mr. Huntley, I have this vain yet funny image of you telling Don Rickles funny stories about ME. 

Happy New Year, Bob.

Mike

[David_Elvins]

David,

If true, that is counter-intuitive to me. I rarely see such wild differences in style in an architectural firm, even one with such far flung projects. Most Fazio and Nicklaus courses - regardless of which associate ran the show - have a visceral similarity in design philosophy. I suppose the same can be said for Tom's group.

Gib,

Good points,  I suspect the difference for Norman was that, 1. although he was head of the business, he wasn't actually a designer so he had different people drawing up the plans, and 2. He ran them as separate offices, rather than separate projects so there was probably a greater deal of autonomy within the offices.  he may of considered the need for different courses in different markets too? 

I am going to go out on a limb here and post a picture of a course that I have never played, but here is a photo of a randomly selected Greg Norman designed Florida resort course (Doral Great White) compared to Pelican Waters, a Greg Norman designed resort course in Queensland, Australia (similar climate and demographics to Florida.)

As you can see, the differences are enormous.  The second aerial (Pelican Waters) features lots of diagonal angles, width, preferred sides of fairways, and more naturally shaped water hazards.  The first aerial (Doral) features almost no holes that make strategic sense (from the aerial) very few diagonal carries, more randonly positioned bunkers and strange shaped greens left right and centre.  

On the ground it might make sense (but probably not), but based on the aerial at the very least we can conclude that the difference in styles is stark!

[Mark Saltzman]

Amazed nobody has posted these yet.  1999 vs 2012.  Maybe GolfCourseHistories can get a comparo going??

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Thanks for posting those.  I'm really surprised how much the bunkering is changed, just from a quick glance at holes 4-5-6-7 in the upper left corner, which I remember pretty well from their original version.

[Tom_Doak]

Apache Stronghold and Pac Dunes are sewn together with similar tapestries despite the different terrain. Maybe Old Mac is a bit of a departure, but not as much as it looks at first glance. Even their faux-Macdonald reprise has a similar aroma, demonstrating that Tom and Urbina have rubbed off on each other. 

Gib:

Apache Stronghold, Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald were all built with Jim as the lead associate.  Perhaps if you are looking to make your point, you should go and play one of the courses where he wasn't involved -- High Pointe or Lost Dunes or Cape Kidnappers or Barnbougle or Rock Creek, for example.  I think you would find them a bit different, though not as different as Greg Norman's work in Australia is from his work in America.  I agree with David about that.

I could explain why I think Norman's work in the U.S. is so different to what he built in Australia, but there has already been more than enough hypothesizing about the man on this thread, so I won't go there now.

[Anthony Butler]

Apache Stronghold and Pac Dunes are sewn together with similar tapestries despite the different terrain. Maybe Old Mac is a bit of a departure, but not as much as it looks at first glance. Even their faux-Macdonald reprise has a similar aroma, demonstrating that Tom and Urbina have rubbed off on each other. 

Gib:

Apache Stronghold, Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald were all built with Jim as the lead associate.  Perhaps if you are looking to make your point, you should go and play one of the courses where he wasn't involved -- High Pointe or Lost Dunes or Cape Kidnappers or Barnbougle or Rock Creek, for example.  I think you would find them a bit different, though not as different as Greg Norman's work in Australia is from his work in America.  I agree with David about that.

I could explain why I think Norman's work in the U.S. is so different to what he built in Australia, but there has already been more than enough hypothesizing about the man on this thread, so I won't go there now.

 Had the pleasure of meeting Bob Harrison while he was supervising the installation of the last of the stacked sod bunkers on #12 at NSWGC in 1998.

[Mike_Young]

I think there are several issues that generate various styles within one firm.  In the case of GN and the difference between his American style and his Australian style it would be the case of two different associates who were trained by architects other than GN.  Now if the firm was old enough to have had associates on both continents trained by the same guy then the styles would not vary as much. 
To me the most notable variation in design over the life of a firm has been with the JN firm.  I think it went from Moorish to Cupp to Lipe and and I would assume Chris Cochran now.  For that reason I classify JN courses by their designer and prefer to play the courses that Jim Lipe designed. 

The other aspect of a design firm's design variation that is being missed is the contractor and to be more specific the individual shaper.  I think the shaper can have as much to do with determining a design as any other element.  I know that for at least one signature firm the process was as simple as  requiring one specific shaper on a particular job and the associate would approve the routing and the tell the shaper to place "the green from hole #3 at course A on the green site for hole #7 at course B".  I can even show you one signature course at a resort near where i live in which the front nine was built at the same time as the back nine by two different shapers and it is very obvious.  Yet when I was telling the supt that there were two different shapers on the two nines he was dumbfounded that it was obvious.  He had been there and knew it but never thought about it.  Once I showed him the bunker shaping and greens tie ins he could not believe he had not noticed it before.   

[Jeff_Lewis]

Mark Saltzman, thanks for posting the side by side aerials.

There are two great sources of strategic reduction in the changes made between the mid 90s and now. The raising up and re-bunkering of the green complexes, and the removal of the inside of the elbow hazards on many of the tee shots.  I am sure that most people can't see too much from those aerials because they don't see which holes are which, or what direction they run in, but, on 2, 3, 7, 9, 13, 15 and 18 we see bunkers moved from the inside to the outside of the driving areas.  Drives lacking in nerve used to run into pine straw, or worse.  Now they are collected by fairway bunkers and the shorter lines are no longer adventurous.

[Anthony Butler]

As for Anthony Butler: If those two sophomoronic loogies are the best you can cough up, just get back in the kiddie pool where you belong. You couldn't clean Mucci's toilet.         

       

Gib,

Reading that last sentence reminded me of a make believe insult I received from the best guy in the business. I was introduced to Don Rickels on the first tee at Riviera over thirty years ago. He said 'hi" and I responded with "I am pleased to meet you" in a plummy accent. Then, as only Rickels could, asked if I was some sort of English faggot. My response was no but I'll give you a kiss if you want. After that I spent the funniest round of golf ever; like you he was a softy at heart.

Bob

Comparing anyone on GCAs ability to insult people (other than by accident) to Don Rickles is like saying someone on GCA has the ability to drive the golf ball like Greg Norman.

Which, come to think of it, might explain some of Shark's problems as an architect.... he can't imagine that people don't enjoy having to drive it up a mosquito's ass from 275yds on every hole. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony Butler,

I think that's true, and not just for Norman.

Didn't Nicklaus's designs  reflect his preference for high fades ?

At he time, Norman was the best driver of the ball that I had seen, hence I think that element probably crept into his designs.

Unfortunately, at the Medalist, going off the narrow fairway invariably proved disastrous.

I think an architect has to forge a balanced challenge which DOESN'T favor any particular golfer or any aspect of  one's game.

In that context I think both Norman and Nicklaus came up short.

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony Butler,

I think that's true, and not just for Norman.

Didn't Nicklaus's designs  reflect his preference for high fades ?

At he time, Norman was the best driver of the ball that I had seen, hence I think that element probably crept into his designs.

Unfortunately, at the Medalist, going off the narrow fairway invariably proved disastrous.

I think an architect has to forge a balanced challenge which DOESN'T favor any particular golfer or any aspect of  one's game.

In that context I think both Norman and Nicklaus came up short.

Perhaps there's a bumper sticker in that: "Crooked Drivers make Better Architects..."

That would be a head-scratcher for about 99.9% of the population, of course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

I think the egos of great players interfere with their ability to view architecture through the eyes/play of the broader spectrum of golfers.

[Howard Riefs]

Tiger tees?


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/redesigned-medalist-golf-club-to-feature-new-tiger-tees

[BHoover]

Tiger tees?


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/redesigned-medalist-golf-club-to-feature-new-tiger-tees

Pretty much impossible to find a fairway from those tees!

Thanks, I'm here all week.

[cary lichtenstein]

I played the Medalist once, it was soon frigging difficult, I declined future invites...bruised my ego too much