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John Connolly

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Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« on: November 02, 2015, 07:01:40 PM »
To prevent balls from careening off the cliff? Or to stop a ball hit on its forehead from hitting Mrs. Green's kankle's on the adjacent tee? Visual interest?


Lastly ... are they as common as they used to be in new courses?
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Paul Gray

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2015, 07:40:56 PM »
On a modern course designed for a purely aerial game they are just another place to stick a bunker. Since you're supposed to fly over the top of the thinks on such a course anyway, they're as valid at the back as at the front.

I'm not, btw, defending such a design. It is simply how it is though.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

John Connolly

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2015, 07:48:40 PM »
Wouldn't backing bunkers ostensibly be there to confound the player for a ball hit long, much in the same way a fronting bunker confounds the player for hitting it short? And as long misses are less frequent than short, backing bunkers are less ubiquitous.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Sean_A

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2015, 07:49:07 PM »
Sometimes its reasonable to have rear bunkers for OOB/safety reasons, severe terrain (saving bunker), front to back greens, create an interesting hole location or two or even just to look pretty. 


Ciao
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Terry Lavin

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2015, 07:53:11 PM »
Pain and suffering.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jon Cavalier

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2015, 07:54:43 PM »
Chicago Golf Club has bunkers backing nearly every green, many of which are at the bottom of a steep slope. I thought it was a great feature - they're truly penal, and combined with the firmness of the course, really puts a premium on hitting fairways off the tee, pure approach shots from the fairways, and properly hit ground shots from short of the putting surface.  This feature really increased the strategy involved in nearly every shot.
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Eric Hammerbacher

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2015, 08:06:02 PM »
I'm a big fan of narrow bunkers behind greens, and I think the delicate bunker shot out of a back bunker to a green sloping away is one of the hardest, but most rewarding, shots in golf.  The thin back bunkers at Myopia #14 and #16, and #18 at BCC Five Farms East course come to mind as some of my favorites, strategically but also for the cool visuals they offer.
"All it takes, in truth, for a golfer to attain his happiness is a fence rail to throw his coat on, and a target somewhere over the rise." -John Updike 1994

Bill_McBride

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 08:40:09 PM »
Perhaps cosmetic, but the back bunkers at the Valley Club are both beautiful and daunting, and yes, they do come into play. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2015, 09:54:43 PM »
To prevent balls from careening off the cliff? Or to stop a ball hit on its forehead from hitting Mrs. Green's kankle's on the adjacent tee? Visual interest?


Lastly ... are they as common as they used to be in new courses?
 
John,
 
The point is that they place a premium on NOT going long, especially when the hole is cut in the back of the green.
 
Many of the old courses employed back to front sloping greens with back bunkers,  sometimes with the added element of a back tier, such as the 16th at The Creek.
 
When the hole is cut on the back tier, going long invariably produces a bogey or worse, and for those who chose to play short of the back tier, a long, difficult, uphill putt is their punishment.
 
That configuration rewards a well thought out and well played approach and/or recovery.
 
It's a great tactical feature.
 
In other situations, when the terrain slopes precipitously away from the back of the green, it's a great safety net.


John Connolly

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2015, 11:33:04 PM »
Great responses gents. An additional question: Do you think it's important for these green-backing bunkers to be visible from the approach? It would seem they would often be hidden by the back of the green. And certainly if they rest at the bottom of the sloping backside.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Jim Nugent

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2015, 12:01:26 AM »
MacRaynor sometimes put bunkers behind their road hole greens to mimic the road.

Paul Gray

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2015, 03:44:05 AM »
Sometimes its reasonable to have rear bunkers for OOB/safety reasons, severe terrain (saving bunker), front to back greens, create an interesting hole location or two or even just to look pretty. 


Ciao

Did Sean Arble just promote a bit of eye candy? I am disgusted.  ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2015, 05:28:39 AM »
I am not a big fan of rear bunkers. Either they are elevated above the putting surface, and I don't think that shot works too well, or they're below it, and thus blind, which is rather unkind. I'm not keen on the framing effect that elevated rear bunkers can give - I prefer golfers to have fewer visual crutches of this kind. They're also, as Paul as highlighted, mostly eye candy as the vast majority of players very rarely overshoot the green.


On the other hand, I did a piece in the current GCA with Rees Jones on what a championship course should look like today, and he made the (I thought rather insightful) point that rear pins are typically more challenging for today's pros because they impose a need to control spin more effectively. And, if as is often the case, they're expecting the ball to suck back on landing, even more so. And, naturally, rear bunkering can play a role in this.


One of my few quibbles with Dr MacKenzie's work is a perception that he overbunkered at times, and that he was overly fond of using sand for eye candy purposes. Mr Colt, by contrast, very rarely deployed rear bunkers, though this may well have been related to his fondness for elevated greens. I remember the first time I visited Tandridge with Frank Pont -- we spent a while discussing how unusual Colt's use of rear bunkers there was, though it's true he used a lot more bunkers period at Tandridge than was normal for him, to the extent that, although there is no evidence to suggest it is possible, I still wonder whether MacKenzie had a hand in that course.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

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www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2015, 06:37:14 AM »
Bunkers at the back of the 12th at ANGC are an obvious example of good bunkers that make for a harder shot. Were the course designed for club play I suspect the bunkers would not be there.

There are two bunkers at the back of the 5th at Golspie which make the recovery from over the green much harder. Were they not there the golfer would face a difficult chip back up to the green from well below the putting surface.

Jon

Josh Stevens

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2015, 07:03:18 AM »
My club has 4 greens that are cut into banks that would in the absence of rear bunkers, be simple backstops that would allow the ball to run back onto the green. So in that sense, the rear bunkers provide not only a visual impact, but also some added interest when you go long

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2015, 08:11:27 AM »
Where the green is elevated and the OB in nearby, a pulled iron, hit 3 feet over the green can bound OB. We installed a back left bunker at Green Acres CC in Northbrook, Ill on the 2nd hole. It was a knock down drag out fight to get it.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jason Kang

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2015, 08:12:05 AM »
No.  "Buy the ticket, take the ride."

Great responses gents. An additional question: Do you think it's important for these green-backing bunkers to be visible from the approach? It would seem they would often be hidden by the back of the green. And certainly if they rest at the bottom of the sloping backside.

BCowan

Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2015, 08:14:06 AM »
Wasn't this a constant design feature of Emmett? 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2015, 08:14:13 AM »

Great responses gents.
An additional question:
Do you think it's important for these green-backing bunkers to be visible from the approach?


NO

Back bunker visibility should be determined by the terrain and NOT by the desire for visibility.

Making back bunkers visible often results in bunkers that create downhill lies in those bunkers, negatively impacting playability


It would seem they would often be hidden by the back of the green.

"OBTUSE is the golfer who can't detect green side bunkers and, based upon the terrain and configuration of the green, predict danger over the green.

And certainly if they rest at the bottom of the sloping backside.

The view of the green should tell you what surrounds the green.

There should be no surprises for the astute golfer


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2015, 08:21:38 AM »
This is all a matter of style and design philosophy.  You can count on one hand for example the number of times an Architect like Ross used bunkers behind his greens.  Ross "ended" his holes at the back edge of his greens and the golfer was at his own peril if they went long.  It was never never land back there and it is well known you don't miss long on Ross greens :).  If you see bunkers on the back side of Ross courses, they were likely added by someone else. 

No right or wrong, just different styles and philosophies.  Know fact, however, is that about 60% of the average golfers misses are short right.  When every hole has a bunker short right it makes me wonder if the architect realizes who he or she is always punishing.   

Michael Blake

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2015, 09:09:55 AM »
I sometimes like them.

As a mid-handicap player, I rarely hit enough club to get back there on my approach...unless I leave my second shot short and then skull my third into that bunker  :)

Seeing the bunker as I contemplate my approach helps me with depth perception.

Buck Wolter

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2015, 09:24:45 AM »
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2015, 12:51:44 PM »
Buck,


Look at the terrain behind the green, it ascends above the grade of the green.


Let us know if you see a similar relationship between the green and the back of the green every April

Buck Wolter

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Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2015, 01:28:31 PM »
Buck,


Look at the terrain behind the green, it ascends above the grade of the green.


Let us know if you see a similar relationship between the green and the back of the green every April

I happened to see this on twitter this morning from one of our own and  couldn't help myself --especially when I read  Adam's Dr Mac comments.

I will keep my eyes open come April -- I have only seen 12 and 13 from the distance of the rope line but they strike me as similar to this one.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers backing a green - What's the point?
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2015, 01:53:39 PM »
Buck,


Look at the terrain behind the green, it ascends above the grade of the green.


Let us know if you see a similar relationship between the green and the back of the green every April

I happened to see this on twitter this morning from one of our own and  couldn't help myself --especially when I read  Adam's Dr Mac comments.

I will keep my eyes open come April -- I have only seen 12 and 13 from the distance of the rope line but they strike me as similar to this one.
 
# 7 and to a lesser degree, # 11 and # 16 provide similar settings.