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Bryan Izatt

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Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« on: October 29, 2015, 02:09:43 AM »


 ...................   is no more out of the lamp in 2015 than it has been for the last decade.  Arguably the decade from 1985 to 1995 was a stable period for average driving distance on tour.  The next decade from '95 to '05 was the growth decade with the average distance gain being about 11% over the decade.  The latest decade from '05 to '15 seems to be a return to stability.  I wonder what the next decade will bring?


The longest drivers seemed to have stabilized as well.


The gap between the longest and shortest seems to be declining a bit - probably the shortest hitters are being weeded out of the Tour.




JESII

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2015, 07:37:45 AM »
Thanks Bryan...good stuff.


Agree with your last sentence completely.


I wonder if there's a way to answer the question about the number of non-drivers being used these days as opposed to prior years. Does ShotLink deal with clubs used?

Aaron Marks

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2015, 12:03:34 PM »
Thanks for sharing.  I'd be interested in seeing the difference in the 75th percentile driving distance and 25th percentile driving distance, if you can!

Kalen Braley

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2015, 12:11:17 PM »
I'm with Jim on this one.  You see these guys now hitting irons off the tee on 420-430 yard par 4s, because they can go 250-260 with much greater accuracy and still have a short iron in..
 
I've got to wonder if this is flat in the last 10 years because of better course mgmt., not because distances are flattening out...

Tom_Doak

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2015, 12:30:19 PM »
I'm with Jim on this one.  You see these guys now hitting irons off the tee on 420-430 yard par 4s, because they can go 250-260 with much greater accuracy and still have a short iron in..
 
I've got to wonder if this is flat in the last 10 years because of better course mgmt., not because distances are flattening out...


I'd agree.  I wonder if the Tour is actually setting up 2-3 holes per round to encourage lay-ups, so they don't raise the red flag about the golf ball and the latest drivers.  The governing bodies have staked everything on the idea that the "average driving distance" is not rising, but I wouldn't put it past them to find ways to produce the desired result.  There are a lot more guys who can carry it 300 yards than there were ten years ago, when there were just one or two.

Niall C

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2015, 12:36:00 PM »
Bryan


Do these graphs show total driving distance or just carry ?


Niall

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2015, 12:47:26 PM »
I'm with Jim on this one.  You see these guys now hitting irons off the tee on 420-430 yard par 4s, because they can go 250-260 with much greater accuracy and still have a short iron in..
 
I've got to wonder if this is flat in the last 10 years because of better course mgmt., not because distances are flattening out...


I'd agree.  I wonder if the Tour is actually setting up 2-3 holes per round to encourage lay-ups, so they don't raise the red flag about the golf ball and the latest drivers.  The governing bodies have staked everything on the idea that the "average driving distance" is not rising, but I wouldn't put it past them to find ways to produce the desired result.  There are a lot more guys who can carry it 300 yards than there were ten years ago, when there were just one or two.
Tom--

Bryan can confirm or deny this, but even if your theory is true, it's probably not borne out in the data presented. If he's taking the driving distance stat kept by the Tour, then the raw numbers come from just two holes per round where the Tour knows the vast majority of players are hitting driver off the tee. So those layups are happening on holes the Tour is not using to measure the Driving Distance statistic.

Now, if Bryan's numbers are coming from ShotLink, usung tee shot distances on all par 4s and par 5s, there could theoretically be something to your intimation.

The more likely conclusion is that we've reached a plateau with regard to the heat of the ball and club. Looks like 9,000-yard courses aren't going to be necessary at some point, after all.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Dave McCollum

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2015, 02:51:31 PM »
Those graphs seem to coincide with the introduction of the Pro V1 (2001) and other current performance balls.  I used to tell my golfing buddies that if they were playing with a driver more than 5 years old, they were missing out on some fun.  Now, not so much with the adopted speed limits.     

Jason Topp

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2015, 03:42:19 PM »
I love the data, including the average and the delta.
Big jumps have always happened at the time of technological changes.  ProV1 and graphite shafts caused the big jump between 95 and 05.  I expect the overall distance standard to continue to prevent further big jumps in the next decade.
I do expect a slight rise due to bigger and better atheletes over the next decade.  150 pound fit guys that hit it 300 yards can still be at the top of the profession.  At some point I would guess they would be squeezed out but who knows?  The best players today do not seem much, if any, bigger than the best players of 1995.   

john_stiles

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2015, 04:07:16 PM »
The ball and implement companies continue to do research into all aspects of performance whether different materials for cores and shells, shells layers, dimples, shafts, heads, etc.


Until the research stops, hitting distances will continue to increase.


To think that research will stop and ability of the foxes to outfox will end is just silly.


The people that test B&I and write standards are always catching up.


And someone even trying to find a cheaper process or cheaper materials will look up and wonder what happened to my lab experiment. What the hell happened....oh wait a minute....Eureka !


It is the nature of research. They must research.


Those that govern must govern.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2015, 04:23:06 PM »
The red data points in that graph come from the PGA tour stats page, and most of those data points belong to Bubba.
 
At the bottom of that stats page, it does say 2 holes are used per day, per tournament, in opposite directions of each other....to get those data points.  It doesn't specify on what types of holes they set up on, other than its safe to say they aren't par 3s.

JESII

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2015, 04:42:17 PM »
The flip side of my "laying up" question that I've noticed more these last couple years than previously...the fairways seem to be rock hard and mowed tight. I see these guys hit drives that seem to bounce and roll 50 or 60 yards just about every tournament.


Frustratingly, this same guy hits his 5 iron into the par 5 green and it splats dead about two feet from where it landed...


Something aint right...

James Brown

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2015, 08:19:55 PM »
I would agree with Doaks theory on layups padding the stats, but driving distance is only part of the story. 


The average distance a tour pro hits irons is also a big factor.  Better balls combined with launch monitor tuning and better compression is yielding iron distances that are still growing.  I don't think many guys were hitting 6-irons 200 in the air in 2005.  Someone could probably verify this with "what's in my bag data."   We also haven't discussed the loophole in trampoline effect limits that is allowed for smaller headed clubs than drivers. 


My pro, who also works with some tour guys, has certainly seen this in their numbers on TrackMan. 

Mike_Young

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2015, 09:37:37 PM »
The unknown in some of this year to year data is weather conditions and fairway heights. If the PGA tour has a year with more damp days than another year then distance can either even out or possibly drop BUT lower fairway heights have so much to do  with distance also and seems that would be showing an increase even with same ball and clubs...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jason Topp

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2015, 10:44:42 PM »
The unknown in some of this year to year data is weather conditions and fairway heights. If the PGA tour has a year with more damp days than another year then distance can either even out or possibly drop BUT lower fairway heights have so much to do  with distance also and seems that would be showing an increase even with same ball and clubs...


Mike - I think the weather factor would have evened out over the last ten years.

Mike_Young

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2015, 11:14:10 PM »
Jason,
Weather probably did average out...would really like to see Trackman readings from a good cross section for the last 5 years....I think that would tell us more and eliminate the choice of irons, hybrids etc from tees on some par 4's...JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim Nugent

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2015, 02:18:53 AM »
As Tim Gavrich points out, the PGA Tour measures its driving stats on just two holes per round.  Would they really pick holes that require or encourage layups, when they are supposedly trying to measure driving distance?  Barring conspiracy theories, I would think the opposite. 

ETA:  according to a research paper by Rutgers economics prof Douglas Coate, "These holes are selected so that they run in opposite directions to control for wind and selected so that players are likely to select driver."

« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 02:30:05 AM by Jim Nugent »

jeffwarne

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2015, 02:30:45 AM »
I would agree with Doaks theory on layups padding the stats, but driving distance is only part of the story. 


The average distance a tour pro hits irons is also a big factor.  Better balls combined with launch monitor tuning and better compression is yielding iron distances that are still growing.  I don't think many guys were hitting 6-irons 200 in the air in 2005.  Someone could probably verify this with "what's in my bag data."   We also haven't discussed the loophole in trampoline effect limits that is allowed for smaller headed clubs than drivers. 


My pro, who also works with some tour guys, has certainly seen this in their numbers on TrackMan.


James.
While I won't dispute that the players continue to get longer, I'd say it really doesn't matter that a 6 iron goes farther because it is simply a 5 iron of 10 years ago and a 4 iron from jack Nicklaus era.
Lofts are decreasing and shaft length is increasing.
I saw a 42 degree PW the other day.
How many Gap wedges would you need between that and a SW?

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

DMoriarty

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2015, 02:36:01 AM »
As Tim Gavrich points out, the PGA Tour measures its driving stats on just two holes per round.  Would they really pick holes that require or encourage layups, when they are supposedly trying to measure driving distance?  Barring conspiracy theories, I would think the opposite. 

ETA:  according to a research paper by Rutgers economics prof Douglas Coate, "These holes are selected so that they run in opposite directions to control for wind and selected so that players are likely to select driver."
How long do these holes have to be so that Dustin Johnson will likely hit driver?  How many courses feature two such holes running in opposite directions?

While courses have gotten ridiculously long, I don't think they are nearly long enough to force the longest pros to hit driver.  Conspiracy or not, the stats may reflect this.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 02:37:47 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
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Jim Nugent

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2015, 03:26:30 AM »
Par 3 holes could give us a read on distance gains.  Are the pro's hitting less club now into the same par 3s, compared to 2003-05?  Irons must have the same loft for this comparison to hold any water.

I keep reading that the young guys and kids these days hit their drives into the stratosphere, so driving stats leveling off surprises me a bit. 

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2015, 03:46:46 AM »
Thanks for sharing.  I'd be interested in seeing the difference in the 75th percentile driving distance and 25th percentile driving distance, if you can!

Since the number of players included in the list varies from year to year it is too tedious to figure out the 25th and 75th percentiles.  For whatever it's worth I approximated it by using the 40th and 120th ranked players each year.  Statistically that's close enough. 

Surprisingly to me, the delta in distance was only around 9 yards (range 6 to 10 yards over the years) and has seen no appreciable variation from 1980 to the present.  The middle of the field appears to be tightly bunched and their relative distances seem to have been impacted not at all by the modern ball and club technology.  Even more surprising is that 3 of the years in which the 40th and 120th ranked players had the least difference in yardage (about 6 yards) were 2000 to 2002 during the time of the transition to the Pro V1 and its ilk.  No idea what that means.


 


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2015, 04:17:07 AM »
The distances I used are total distances from the Tour stats pages and relate to the two measured holes at each tournament.  They are selected on holes where the Tour feels that most players will use drivers.  They, of course, can't control what a player chooses to hit.

At last years Valspar Championship, I happened to run into Mark Russell on the course during the final round and since he was unoccupied at the time, I asked him which holes were the driver distance measuring holes.  He didn't know but radioed in and found out.  They were two long par 5's running in opposite directions.  He was curious why I wanted to know and I told him that it was because some of us were debating whether the driving stats were skewed by players hitting less than driver.  He just said they tried to pick holes where there was no reason for any of the players to lay up or want to guide their shots.  I watched for a while at one of the measured holes and 15 of the 16 players I watched hit driver - the other hit a 3 wood.  So, in practice, it seems likely that the driving distances may be slightly understated based on this one anecdotal example.  However, this has likely been the case over the life of the measurements. 

There are, of course other factors that vary from round to round and course to course including weather, course conditions, etc.  The data does not exist to do a year to year comparisons that isolate all those other factors.  Since there are thousands of drives included in the data each year gathered in all kinds of weather and course conditions, I'd guess that these factors more or less wash out from year to year.

Bottom line is, that based on the most comprehensive data available, average driving distance on the PGA Tour hasn't increased by much, if any thing at all over the last decade.  Whether that current average distance is "good for the game" or not is another debate.  At least on the Tour the bleeding has stopped, more or less.

In the spirit of you learn something every day, who knew that TD was a conspiracy theorist?   ;) ;D


BCrosby

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2015, 11:44:44 AM »
Bryan's conclusion about the stability of the distance delta is borne out in comparisons between driving distances at the USO at PII in '99 (a Stewart win) and in '05 (a Campbell win). The Pro-V1 was introduced between the two events. The USGA driving stats showed that every one (long, short or middling drivers) all gained 15 to 20 yards with the new ball. In short, the advantages of the ball were more or less evenly distributed across the distance spectrum.


David M's point above can't be stressed enough. Yes 7500 yard courses are crazy for punters like us, yes they are more expensive to build and maintain, yes they require increasingly large tracts of real estate. But you can not criticize them as being too long for the pros. On an apples to apple historic basis, they are in fact too short for the pros.


That is not an argument for longer and longer courses. It is an argument to either (a) do something about balls and equipment or (b) bifurcate the rules.


Bob



   
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 11:49:21 AM by BCrosby »

Jason Thurman

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2015, 11:47:30 AM »
It's hilarious to read these guys who apparently think Bubba Watson and Dustin Johnson only hit drivers once or twice a year and thus skew the statistics dramatically with all their 7-iron layups on the measured holes.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Average PGA Tour Driving Distance Genie for 2015 .........
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2015, 11:53:29 AM »
It's hilarious to read these guys who apparently think Bubba Watson and Dustin Johnson only hit drivers once or twice a year and thus skew the statistics dramatically with all their 7-iron layups on the measured holes.

Jason,
 
Anything worth exaggerating is worth doing it all the way I guess..  :-\
 
Your post is obviously absurd, but the plain facts are...no one was hitting 200 yard 6 irons just 15 years ago in normal conditions...not even Tiger.  And now you probably have half the PGA tour field hitting these.
 
P.S.  To boot...if you put this current crop of player on the courses at the same length they were playing them 15-20 years ago, they would be destroying all the scoring records and hitting 3w, wedge into every par 4....