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Mark Pearce

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Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2015, 11:11:24 AM »
Ran,


The Castle Course at St. Andrews certainly disappointed many people, but I would certainly not agree with the Castle being a zero.  That one surprised me the most.
I don't think Ran gave the Castle Course a 0.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2015, 10:44:22 AM »
Haven't got the books to hand but remember thinking Tom missed Moray Old by two marks (giving it a 4 where it is worth a 6 in my book).... Could argue that Ran missed Carne by two marks when he gave it a 5...
 
Off hand, I don't remember any real clangers though...

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2015, 10:53:48 AM »
Ally


In fairness Tom is the only one of the four that has seen Moray Old, and I think that was back in 1982. I've said before that he was obviously harder to please back when he was a nipper ! If Dornoch is a 10 then I'm a chinaman Moray Old must be worth more than just a two point upgrade. However the biggest slight to Moray Old has to be being included in the top 3 tightest/narrowest courses list.


Niall

BCowan

Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2015, 10:59:16 AM »

Mid-Pines may indeed be in the top 150 when it comes to quality and enjoyability of playing experience for the vast majority of golfers who play the game. It's considered to be one of, if not the best hickory courses in the United States. #2 is a great course and one of my favorites, and clearly deserves the grade you gave it. But I think what we have here is somewhat akin to the two courses at Baltusrol. The Lower is clearly the superior big event course, but the Upper is the more special one that I believe the members prefer and that I believe (based on my one playing of each!) offers the superior playing experience.


Did you really compare Pinehurst #2 with Baltusrol (Lower) ?


Ran seems to be staying on the sidelines here, which is probably due to you guys arguing about courses in his backyard where he knows everyone involved in management.  So, I'll weigh in a bit.  What I'd say is that David is the second guy in the last ten posts to compare Mid Pines to #2 ... which they think is horribly overrated ... and then to use my high rating of #2 to justify a very high rating for Mid Pines. 


In other words, I don't think you're really saying Mid Pines is a 9 [equal to LACC, Seminole, and Augusta] ... you're saying Pinehurst #2 is a 7.  And I just don't agree with that at all.  #2 has not got a standout hole which automatically belongs in one of those eclectic 18's, but it has about fifteen holes that would fill in nicely if you can't come up with a great first hole, or third, or twelfth, or whatever.  Sorry if it doesn't have enough tree-lined doglegs for your tastes!


P.S.  I give zero points for history, except for my own history with the course.

Tom,

  How does #2 not have a standout hole (s).  #3, #5, #9???   I think #2 is a 9 all day and possibly a 10.

When u get to 7 or higher nit picking has to be done.  MP maint meld (over treed, over seeded too much, and the pond on 3 is horrible even though it's grown on me). I give the course a strong 8 with the chance to vault with tree removal, moving pond on 3 to right like original location, and eliminating overseeding to green entrances.

When u say is it is good as LACC, I don't know haven't played it, friends tell me LACC is a 10.  Seminole and Augusta as examples is like a Mucci response, so I can't say ;D 


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2015, 03:38:15 PM »
Reference Volume 1 -


p179 contains lists of courses the Four Musketeers are looking forward to seeing someday, namely -


Tom
Blackwell
Castletown
Celtic Manor 2010
Cleeve Cloud
Close House Colt
Knole Park
Laytown & Bettystown
Minchinhampton Old
Royal Guernsey
Temple


Masa
Aberdovey
Broadstone
Bundoran
Hunstanton
Perranporth
Pyle & Kenfig
St Medan
Tandridge
Tenby
Trevose


Darius
Ardglass
Askernish
Ballyliffin
Boat of Garten
Cavendish
Dooks
Hankley Common
Musselburgh
New Zealand
Rosapenna


Ran
Beau Desert
Broadstone
Formby
Gullane 1
Kingsbarns
The Machrie
Painswick
The Renaissance Club
St Andrews New
Stonehaven


and here are the GB&I courses extracted from The Next Fifty section of this website -


St Andrews New
Machrie
Beau Desert
Luffness New
Dunbar
Stonehaven
Aberdovey
Shiskine


Does The Next Fifty listing need revising? Just a thought.


atb

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2015, 08:11:57 PM »
I think Mid Pines is a wonderful course. I have played Roaring Gap and Old Town within the past 2 months and rate them with Mid Pines. Last week I played #2 again and other than its history fail to see it deserving 9s and 10, Darius's 8 maybe?? ( but only because of its length and ability to challenge modern technology. ). The green complexes lack variety and if pin positions are not on edges or corners the difficulty is substantially decreased as the green's internal contouring is not nearly up to the level of the first 3 named course.  Additionally the lack of varied topography provides lies mostly on level ground in stark contrast to MP, RG and OT. where a far greater variety of shots are required.
Rated for fun MP, RG and OT would surely get 8s, #2 likely a 6


Now way you can say the green complexes at #2 are not better or more interesting than Mid-Pines.  Mid-Pines is a great course.  Don't get me wrong, but #2 is maybe the greatest test of short game on earth. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2015, 04:30:42 AM »
I think Mid Pines is a wonderful course. I have played Roaring Gap and Old Town within the past 2 months and rate them with Mid Pines. Last week I played #2 again and other than its history fail to see it deserving 9s and 10, Darius's 8 maybe?? ( but only because of its length and ability to challenge modern technology. ). The green complexes lack variety and if pin positions are not on edges or corners the difficulty is substantially decreased as the green's internal contouring is not nearly up to the level of the first 3 named course.  Additionally the lack of varied topography provides lies mostly on level ground in stark contrast to MP, RG and OT. where a far greater variety of shots are required.
Rated for fun MP, RG and OT would surely get 8s, #2 likely a 6


Now way you can say the green complexes at #2 are not better or more interesting than Mid-Pines.  Mid-Pines is a great course.  Don't get me wrong, but #2 is maybe the greatest test of short game on earth.


James


Maybe a course should aspire to offer several types of short game tests. Despite very learned people telling us that #2 is awesome because of its greens, a great many people think the greens are far too similar in their type of challenge for a course which earns 9s and 10s.  It is rarely mentioned, but of the great courses sitting atop the mountain of golf, very few are as polarizing as #2.  Be that as it may, it is an impossibility to suggest the greens should be returned back to their original state because the greens are by far #2s's biggest talking point and they are quite unusual...if rather less diverse than many would like. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

K Rafkin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2015, 01:50:37 PM »
I have to say, I didn't quite expect Mid Pines getting a 7 to be the most "controversial" subject of volume 2.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2015, 04:08:44 AM »
If we could get Ran back to the table...what is the story with Royal Ashdown?  Why such lofty grades?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2015, 06:58:30 AM »
The greens and green complexes on #2 are fabulous, among the best in big tournament golf. Mid-Pines' start with a similar premise and then go a lot further. The drop-offs around some of the greens are more severe (#'s 8, 12, 14 and others) and the ball runs further away. They don't have the "accidental" crowning that #2 has, but instead I believe were designed that way in the first place. And their internal contour is infinitely more severe and challenging. Once you get your ball into the hearts of #2 greens, putting is pretty straightforward, and the greens don't break a lot. At MP you can be in the middle of the green yet have an extremely challenging 2-putt situation, with 15' putts breaking 5' or more. The greens at MP are also a good deal more varied than at #2, a point well made by Sean.


Ben - Where is Mid-Pines over-treed? As for the over-seeding, that's a result of the resort nature of the course. And wouldn't it look weird having the course ablaze with dogwoods and azaleas but with white, dormant fairways? That's likely what would happen during the first half of April, right in the middle of their peak season.

BCowan

Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2015, 10:02:13 AM »
Ben - Where is Mid-Pines over-treed? As for the over-seeding, that's a result of the resort nature of the course. And wouldn't it look weird having the course ablaze with dogwoods and azaleas but with white, dormant fairways? That's likely what would happen during the first half of April, right in the middle of their peak season.

David,

    I stated in my post that the 10 yards in front of the greens could be un-seeded and spray painted green just like the Greens are.  Carts don't drive over those areas.  The reason why fairways aren't painted like #2 is I'm sure MP doesn't want cart path only play like #2 (Slow).   The ground game would improve by un-seeding green entrances and painting them.  Also the painted grass would look greener in contrast with flowers in spring.  I take a .5 deduction for flowers on a course (Dogwoods/Azaleas)  ;D .

  Where is MP over-treed, really?  Behind 1 green, 2 green, I'd remove all the trees to the left on 3 fairway (exposing beautiful ridge), the trees around 4 green, 5 fairway to the left already stated.  by 5 green.  Many trees around 8 green whacked. All the trees behind 9 green.  Trees behind 12 green and 13 green, 14 green.  Trees behind 15 green.  17 many trees I'd whack.

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2015, 06:37:33 PM »
Ben,


Wasn't it Jack Nicklaus who said that he loved #2 for being a tree-lined course but where no trees came into play?


I disagree with most of your tree removal suggestions other than what you said about the third hole. Maybe a little thinning out to improve views, but really not helpful or necessary. And no, the dogwoods and azaleas add .5 or even more when they are blooming! :P


Seriously, I don't think your suggested tree removals would add anything and would probably detract. For example, the trees behind #2 are old and gnarly, and I believe add character. The trees behind #9 shield a parking lot. A week or so ago I was playing there and pointed out to the visitors I was playing with how you could see ten or eleven different holes as we approached the 6th green, and how from many other spots around the course you could see a lot of other holes. The neat thing was that the course does have a good number of trees, yet you could still see across the course to multiple of there holes from pretty much everywhere. Other than for Oakmont and Old Town, I can't remember playing an inland non-cow pasture course that had so many holes visible from multiple vantage points, yet at Oakmont and OTC, the trees were all removed. MP has this feature yet still retains the framing trees, a pretty neat feature in that the pines are tremendously important in establishing a sense of identity and place.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2015, 08:36:23 AM »
We-Ko-Pa: Per the infamous REM ranking scale, an A equates to an 8. I have 104 courses rated an A or higher and - no kidding - We-Ko-Pa is the last one. Jason, I agree with you about some of the shorter holes (especially 2 and 7) that are among my least favorites on the course. Conversely, I suggest that the 10th ranks with one of the best that C&C have ever done and 16 can be full of peril. The finishing 5-hole stretch is so good and so diverse that it tips the course just past line for me. Having said all that, I can certainly see how someone would opt for a grade less. However, not two as the landscape is so pretty and undisturbed by homes and the holes as a set are so sound.

Pine Needles:  ~20 rounds there and always enjoyed myself immensely is a huge head start toward a high grade. HOWEVER, in a recent member-guest there and Mid-Pines, it became apparent how much more contour the middle of the greens enjoy at Mid-Pines. This was never my perception in the first 15 years living here and having watched/walked several Women's Opens at Pine Needles. So ... based that recent experience, Pine Needles is currently under reassessment because Mid-Pines looks and plays a notch higher in my mind now. Re: Mid Pines, my only reservation is that none of the tee balls readily appeal on the par 5 holes (5, 6,10, and 15). The land is a bit too abrupt in the landing areas on 3 of those holes. Conversely, favorites like 4, 12, 16, and 17 require you to rub past bunkers to gain an advantage and are exquisite tactical holes.

Riviera: It is the only '9' that could clearly be improved, especially the 1st, 8th and 13th holes. Regardless, I would rather play there than at 99.99% of the courses in the world. I am slavishly devoted to courses with strategy and Riviera remains right at or near the top in that regard, despite a few aesthetic issues and those lame trees on the inside of 13.

YHC and Pinehurst No. 2:  No surprise! Great greens and modest topography is a recipe for divergent opinions. (I would include the Old Course in this group though no one mentioned it.) Most people who hold Yeamans materially lower seem to have played it May through October. Quite fortunately, I generally play it in the winter when the greens can be Oakmont quick and scary. When approach shots release here, a seasonal phenomenon, it's scary good/great to the point where I put the green contours in the top 10 in the country.

As for Pinehurst, it and Harbour Town deserve as much credit as any courses in the world for the eventual formation of GolfClubAtlas.com. The concept of short grass as terror is perfected at Pinehurst. Tom could give every hole there an ! mark because of the merit of each green (though I remain a non-fan of the 15th green).

Royal Ashdown Forest: Tom has said it before, at some point, you are hoping to see something different. Sean, you will agree that RAF is certainly that. Plus, my personal bias is that 95% of most courses are both overly bunkered and poorly bunkered. RAF is neither and significantly - in my eyes – a site blessed with enough natural features to get away with it. Holes of real value include the stretch of 5 -7, the great three shot 12th and 17. The rest is so natural and the connection with nature so genuine that I happily overlook the occasional dull moment (though there is never a dull stretch). Having said that, for sure, I wish they could add 5 to 7 bunkers here and there.

Best,

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2015, 09:20:07 AM »
YHC and Pinehurst No. 2:  No surprise! Great greens and modest topography is a recipe for divergent opinions. (I would include the Old Course in this group though no one mentioned it.)

Ran

TOC included among YHC and #2 as courses with modest topography?  You have lost me there.  I am not sure what modest means and in this case elevation changes would be my guess.  Can't argue that, but man I would never consider the terrain at TOC as modest.  Its one of the most humpty bumpty places on the planet (with a good mix of flat holes to gain one's balance) without any of the bother of hill climbing.  Quite simply, one of the best sites for golf I have ever experienced. 

I can fully understand the desire for something different and being bunkerless is different.  Yet for me RAF is a two trick pony.  Loads of man-made forced carries and too much plowing up and down hills (a weakness shared by Cleeve Cloud).   I was profoundly disappointed in my visit despite the course being in good nick.  But most obviously praise RAF so perhaps I should have another look.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2015, 09:02:36 PM »
Ran,


I agree with your assessment about the landing areas on the par-5's being abrupt. #'s 5 and 15 are classic half-par holes so I'm okay with them as they are. Turn them both into 4's and you'd have one heck of a stern par-70 test. As you probably know, #5 is played as a par-4 during the mini-tour event held out there each spring, and Kyle wants #15 to remain as a par-5 so as to not have the course end with five consecutive par-4's.

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which grades in Volume 1 & 2 did I miss by 2 or more marks?
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2015, 10:34:46 AM »
Now way you can say the green complexes at #2 are not better or more interesting than Mid-Pines.  Mid-Pines is a great course.  Don't get me wrong, but #2 is maybe the greatest test of short game on earth.

I believe that the stereotype of #2 greens supports my point. While individual green complexes may be great, the over all experience lacks the variety of Mid Pines, Old Town and Roaring Gap. Given 10 rounds to play I would play MP, OT or RG at 7-3 or 8-2 vs #2.
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