[Peter Pallotta]

And did the oldest money have the best architectural taste of all?

Peter

[Jim_Kennedy]

They surely had the best taste in Architects (once they became available).

[Steve Lang]

   You mean the ones that made the money right, whether nouveau or not?  They certainly had the best opportunity to attract and employ an ODG architect at the time, not really unlike some of the present wealthy folk who can acquire proper land & permits and are well travelled and can afford entertaining proposals from the best known modern architects. 


Taste or style, whatever you can afford or control..

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
I don't think MOST memberships, boards, golf professionals know much at all about architecture and that is not said in a condescending manner.  They just know what they are told they should like.  Modern day technological elements, be it chemicals, irrigation, balls, drivers, golf cars and many other things are convincing.  It's all cutting edge stuff developed by some sharp dudes.  The same goes for modern architecture.  But the architecture element is an intangible and often marketing efforts create an environment where intelligent decision makers don't take the learning curve of architecture into account.  So unecessary monies are always spent. 
And so using the above, I think the old money has wisdom and the new money thinks intellect trumps wisdom.  Wisdom knows when to call BS.  Some might call that taste.

[Kalen Braley]

A lot of old money now was new money 80-100 years ago.
 
As a lot of old money is slow to adopt new fangled ideas and concepts, by default they still own and revere the stuff that was new 80-100 years ago which puts them right in the butter zone for golden age golf courses.

[Joel_Stewart]

I've thought about it and would say no. 


Some Old money clubs have members who appreciate the ODG and set the direction but others do not. You could list clubs one by one and see the vision and direction.


Others like Oakmont, had a powerful guy who planted all the trees and then over a long period of time a new guard came in and took all the trees out.

[Jason Thurman]

Old money dictates taste. The things they fall in love with today will be what the rest of us fall in love with in 10 or 20 years.

[Joel_Stewart]

Old money dictates taste. The things they fall in love with today will be what the rest of us fall in love with in 10 or 20 years.

Not sure I agree with that.  A speaker at a conference I just attended said that older people will accept and adopt new ideas.  The younger generation will not adopt older ideas. 

[Jim Hoak]

This strikes me as being the opposite of the non-minimalist architect who told me that criticism of modern architecture was "elitist."  I don't think either are true.

[jeffwarne]

no they just have older golf courses
and by extension older (now dead) architects


Seen plenty of great old line golf courses bastardized by modern doctors

[Jason Thurman]

Old money dictates taste. The things they fall in love with today will be what the rest of us fall in love with in 10 or 20 years.

Not sure I agree with that.  A speaker at a conference I just attended said that older people will accept and adopt new ideas.  The younger generation will not adopt older ideas.

Old people and old money are not the same thing. Name three examples of architectural trends that began somewhere other than a club with a primarily "old money" membership. They don't exist.


Your citing of Oakmont was a perfect example. No club has ever been a more consistent reflection of good taste. When Oakmont and other old money clubs started planting trees in the name of beautification, other clubs followed suit as soon as they noticed the trend and acquired the resources to follow it. When Oakmont and its ilk cleared trees a few decades later, other clubs soon followed. By the time middle class and new money clubs start clearing trees, the Oakmonts of the world will be on to the next trend.

[jeffwarne]

Old money dictates taste. The things they fall in love with today will be what the rest of us fall in love with in 10 or 20 years.

Not sure I agree with that.  A speaker at a conference I just attended said that older people will accept and adopt new ideas.  The younger generation will not adopt older ideas.

Old people and old money are not the same thing. Name three examples of architectural trends that began somewhere other than a club with a primarily "old money" membership. They don't exist.

4 examples of non old money clubs that set trends


Sand Hills-not much need be said about that


Long Cove
I'd say it was the perfect blend of Dye subtlety and trends of the 80's-perhaps not exactly the start of a trend but certainly an important course in the Dye legacy


Pacific Dunes-where Doak was discovered by the mainstream golfer-enabling them to discover minimalism-even if it took a spectacular setting to see it


TPC and PGA west-trends of the 80's

[Peter Pallotta]

So we're talking basically Sand Hills and Pacific as the exceptions, huh? 


And even then: Bill and Ben and Tom might not come from old money, but they were born old....

[Josh Stevens]

The Australian Golf Club in Sydney disproves the rule. Oldest club in the country and no architectural taste whatsover

[Adam Lawrence]

I think it might seem that old money has better taste in golf architecture, simply because most of the really great courses are in the hands of old money clubs. But for every old money club that gets it, there's another planting trees, narrowing fairways and overwatering. And though the new money courses may only occasionally reach this elite, for every Alotian there is a Friar's Head. So I conclude that there is no direct correlation between old money and good taste in golf design/management.

[Kalen Braley]

I think it might seem that old money has better taste in golf architecture, simply because most of the really great courses are in the hands of old money clubs. But for every old money club that gets it, there's another planting trees, narrowing fairways and overwatering. And though the new money courses may only occasionally reach this elite, for every Alotian there is a Friar's Head. So I conclude that there is no direct correlation between old money and good taste in golf design/management.

Adam,
 
I think that's just coincidence.
 
After all, there are only so many good/quality golden age courses to go around.  If other old money wants a course they must go and get something else.

[A.G._Crockett]

There is no direct connection between money of any age and taste of any sort.  None.

[Ian Andrew]

Doesn't knowledge have a far greater role in understanding than money?


Isn't it a bigger factor that some can afford to travel and experience more than others.


... for that reason I would say no

[Joel_Stewart]

The Australian Golf Club in Sydney disproves the rule. Oldest club in the country and no architectural taste whatsover

I'm told this was because Kerry Packard one of the most powerful people in Australia ruled the club at the time.  He was also a member at Muirfield Village and liked that course and Jack Nicklaus.  Even though he is dead the club continues to use Nicklaus and keep the course as a hard tournament course.


The question for another thread is what "Old money club has continued to embrace it historic tradition"?


San Francisco
Chicago
Valley Club


among others.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ian - of course I couldn't argue that knowledge and understanding aren't keys; this thread was just a little open-ended thinking. But to AG and others, I'd raise the example of Ralph Lauren, who has made a billion dollars with lines of clothes based entirely on the assumption (and seemingly confirming the belief) that old money had great taste. Ironically, I guess, Mr Lauren is now the "new" money. So maybe, along with Joel's suggested follow-up topic, we can have another one too: i.e.

"Does New Money that Embraces Old Money Tastes Make Even More New Money"?

(Err...um...Pacif....greeting....Nova....Midas.... )

[Dan Kelly]

There is no direct connection between money of any age and taste of any sort.  None.

Nailed it.

[Adam Lawrence]

The Australian Golf Club in Sydney disproves the rule. Oldest club in the country and no architectural taste whatsover

I'm told this was because Kerry Packard one of the most powerful people in Australia ruled the club at the time.  He was also a member at Muirfield Village and liked that course and Jack Nicklaus.  Even though he is dead the club continues to use Nicklaus and keep the course as a hard tournament course.

Packer. FWIW.

[Doug Siebert]

Isn't this a self selection bias?  Of the older courses that still survive, the best ones are more likely to have survived than the crappy ones.  Old money is more likely to be interested in a long established club, rather some place that just opened 10 years ago.  So they are more likely to be joining a club that is architecturally of higher quality.  With the new ones sometimes you get C&C or Doak, and sometimes you get a signature course in a housing development.

So here's the question, of the courses built in the last 25 years, which ones do you think are more likely to be around in the year 2100?  Courses like Sand Hills and Pac Dunes, or signature courses built to sell a McMansion housing development?

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