Mike Treitler Index- My Annual Rankings

[Mike Treitler]

Jack,

It sounds as if I may have hit a sore spot here and my intentions were certainly not to offend anybody. 

Blue Mound was boring.  Thats a problem.  Yes the 8th hole is cool and I liked 9 as well.  Other than that it is a completely forgettable golf course IMO.  I played it with a Golf Digest rater and another scratch player and we were very dissapointed.  I always hear how Milwaukee CC and Blue Mound are the places to play in Milwaukee.  Compared to Milwauke CC, Blue Mound looks like a muni.

All 8 of the other courses that I have played on the Golfweek Top Classic made it onto my list in some capacity.  You can say its myopic or that I don't have the right to judge a course and that is certainly your right.  Perhaps I just didn't like Beverly as much as most people.  That happens sometimes. 

Calumet is a fun course to play but certainly nothing special.  The deal is tremendous for a young professional like myself.  The greens are great though and there are still 10 original Ross holes.   It requires attention throughout and there are no gimmie holes despite it being relatively short.  If Calumet had more money they could turn it into a special place. 

Beverly is definitely better than Calumet but my entire membership is almost the same price as the unaccompanied guest fee at Beverly.

[J_ Crisham]

Mike,
     I agree that Milwaukee CC is outstanding and as we speak today it is the best course in Wis. If , as you say , it makes Blue Mound look like a  muni , how would Calumet stack up against Milwaukee?  Blue Mound can defend par if necessary- the severe pin positions could embarass you . At the end of the day Blue Mound undestands it's identity- it is a fine layout that is fun golf for players of all levels. 
       A sore spot ? When you throw somebody's club under the bus don't be surprised if they disagree . As far as Bev's unaccompanied greens fee - it is what it is. We are thriving as a club so we charge what the market allows. Sadly,?Calumet never has nor will they ever have the same ability.

[Mike Treitler]

Jack,

I do regret posting the "overrated list" and I do understand you defending your home turf.  Especially when I don't really have any claims to back it up because I played it so long ago.  The good news for you is that the only reason I think its overrated is that everyone I know RAVES about it.  So that should make you feel better.

Calumet looks a giant piece of crap compared to Milwaukee haha.  I have had the good fortune of playing some great courses from golf trips as a kid and when I was a club pro. However, I am off the parents payroll and as a young sales professional (who didn't sell anything in Q3) I don't have the money to pick and choose my club.  Calumet just provided me the opportunity to play somewhere with nice greens at a low rate and I get to say I belong to a CC

[David Kelly]

Crystal Downs...the greens were semi-aerrated and I found the back 9 to be a bit of a dissapointment.   Arcadia Bluffs has the Ocean... I will admit that pretty much sums it up.

I disagree completely with Spyglass Hill over  Crystal Downs but I would listen to an argument.  However, saying that Spyglass, of all courses, beats another course because THAT course has a boring back nine is incongruous at best.


Also, just because you can't see to the other side of a body of water it doesn't make it an ocean.

[Mike Treitler]

HAHA, I actually fixed that like 2 minutes before you posted.    I said Ocean and meant Lake for Arcadia.

Im sure that helped to enhance my argument 

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:


Everyone is entitled to their own view of what makes a course great, but the most credible reporters keep their experience on the day out of the discussion.


Mentioning that you didn't like a course because "the greens were semi-aerated" is unhelpful.  You have to see past that if you want us to listen.  It does seem that a lot of your ratings are based on conditioning ... but at least you are favoring firm and fast instead of green in that department!

[Mike Treitler]

Tom,

I completely agree... I really liked Crystal Downs, I have it in my top 20, but I know a big part of the appeal is the wonderful greens.  So my point about them being aerated was just that I didn't actually get the full experience which could have contributed to me not placing it in my top 10.

I absolutely love compiling these lists but it is definitely difficult to do when I have played most of these courses only once. Especially when some of them were when I wasn't even in college yet.  It often takes repeat plays to truly appreciate a golf course.  I know that when I played Kingsley Club a second time it shot up my rankings and I would not be surprised if the same would happen at Crystal Downs. 

I am hoping to get a chance to see the work you did at Shore Acres soon and I am guessing that will shoot up my rankings as well.

[corey miller]

I am not sure why someone can't have an opinion that a course is over-rated.  If a course is 98 on a golfweek list and I like a few others better that are not on the list doesn't that make it overrated?  Not sure why this is so disconcerting. 

[John Connolly]

I am not sure why someone can't have an opinion that a course is over-rated.  If a course is 98 on a golfweek list and I like a few others better that are not on the list doesn't that make it overrated?  Not sure why this is so disconcerting. 

1+. Thought police are out in full force today, Mike.

[J_ Crisham]

I am not sure why someone can't have an opinion that a course is over-rated.  If a course is 98 on a golfweek list and I like a few others better that are not on the list doesn't that make it overrated?  Not sure why this is so disconcerting.

Corey,  If you prefer one course over another that's fine. When you label it overrated you are suggesting it has an inflated ranking . When it's my club that is being described as overrated I don't think it unreasonable to ask why it's overrated . As a member I know it's strengths but more importantly recognize it's weaknesses .  If somebody plays it only once and it was years ago is it plausible that their recollection might be off versus the many who think highly of it? If it doesn't fit someone's eye, then so be it. Overrated has a negative tone that suggests overhyped- in truth Beverly may get some extra love on this site because it is a very fun atmosphere.  Isn't that a primary that a primary reason to belong to a club?

[Greg Chambers]

J_,


The OP stated quite clearly that these were his opinions and nothing more...don't take it so seriously.

[mike_beene]

Anyone who considers Dallas National the best course or one of the best courses in Texas is smoking something illegal.

[Brian Hilko]

I give mike a pat on the back for having the guts to post his list despite it not falling in line with how most of us feel. I had the pleasure of playing with mike on his first trip to crystal and kingsley. I was pretty shocked to hear his opinions backed then and we actually got in a pretty heated argument about what makes a course great. In mikes defense he basically  values aesthetics, resistant to scoring, and conditioning when playing a course. If you go back and look it will help you understand his list a little more. Plus his list is broken up into his opinions pre gca and post. Mike should do a rankings of courses he has played since paying more attention to architecture. I think that list will make a little more sense.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Chris,

What are the negatives you found at Turnberry?

Mike, while I didn't love Turnberry - I did enjoy my two rounds there.  Other than to see the changes that Mr. Trump is completing though, I don't think I would rush back to see it.  In fact, if I had two days back in that part of Scotland, I might spend them both at Prestwick, and skip Turnberry all together, but that is just my preference as it relates to golf courses.  At the same time, after having just completed a 10-day trip to Ireland, I can think of four courses from that journey that would easily place above Turnberry on my own list - Ballybunion, County Down, Portrush and Lahinch.  I haven't completed a similar exercise as yours (maybe I should), but I don't know if Turnberry would fall in my top 20, and we have played a lot of the same courses.


My initial reaction to your list wasn't that Turnberry was #1, because Turnberry could be #1 on a lot of peoples' lists, but rather it was #1 on a list with a lot of good golf courses below it.  As it relates to Shoreacres, I was really surprised to see it so far down your list, how long ago did you play it? As there have been some recent changes there over the past few years.


Don't take the feedback too hard, everyone has their favorites and GCA tends to attract some like-minded people when it comes to discussing architecture, and one thing we like to do more than actually discussing architecture is to discuss rankings...

[Mike Treitler]

Hilko is spot on in his assessment regarding my tastes and the transformation of them.   The heated debate we had was actually about Woodlands Vs Links at Lawsonia and I can now definitively say I LOST  .   I play in a Ryder Cup event there with 10 friends and about 3 of them prefer the woodlands.  Its amazing what you see when you start to study the game more.   I spent the whole weekend trying to explain to them how off base they were.

I don't take the feedback hard, in fact I love it!  I knew my list would be sliced and diced and that is exactly why I posted it... I figured you would all have fun with it because it  includes great courses but in a unique order.

Golf is such an incredible game as is and to have been introduced to a world where every course gets dissected just adds to the fun.

[Terry Lavin]

Cut and paste this into the Whip it Out thread and it gets little or no flak. It's just one young guy's faves list. Some great courses there. I doubt Mike is trying to ruffle any feathers here.

[corey miller]

Corey,  If you prefer one course over another that's fine. When you label it overrated you are suggesting it has an inflated ranking . When it's my club that is being described as overrated I don't think it unreasonable to ask why it's overrated . As a member I know it's strengths but more importantly recognize it's weaknesses .  If somebody plays it only once and it was years ago is it plausible that their recollection might be off versus the many who think highly of it? If it doesn't fit someone's eye, then so be it. Overrated has a negative tone that suggests overhyped- in truth Beverly may get some extra love on this site because it is a very fun atmosphere.  Isn't that a primary that a primary reason to belong to a club?

Perhaps the list would have been better received if he just listed the courses he preferred over Beverly to generate discussion rather than "over-rated which we can figure out ourselves.  As for the club itself, J chrisham provides a darn good reason why he likes it but that would be fairly far down on my list but that is why we have them and get to talk about them.

I must say I do like seeing them thouh I benefit a lot more from the reviews on this site by Ran.  Getting this back to Beverly...were you guys able to get rid of some of the trees #2? 

[Rob Marshall]

Mike,
     I agree that Milwaukee CC is outstanding and as we speak today it is the best course in Wis. If , as you say , it makes Blue Mound look like a  muni , how would Calumet stack up against Milwaukee?  Blue Mound can defend par if necessary- the severe pin positions could embarass you . At the end of the day Blue Mound undestands it's identity- it is a fine layout that is fun golf for players of all levels. 
       A sore spot ? When you throw somebody's club under the bus don't be surprised if they disagree . As far as Bev's unaccompanied greens fee - it is what it is. We are thriving as a club so we charge what the market allows. Sadly,?Calumet never has nor will they ever have the same ability.

Jack,
You are being ridiculous. It's his OPINION and he didn't say it was awful. To then go on and attack his course makes you look petty. People join clubs for various reasons, not just to be at the highest rated in their area.

I personally think the Ocean course is overrated. Didn't do a thing for me. That's just my opinion.

[BHoover]

This list is an opinion, so by definition it is neither right nor wrong. We can agree or disagree about particular courses, but to think that any ranking or list is inherently right or wrong seems foolish (and a bit childish) in my view (which also is subjective).

[Jud_T]

Mike,


The interesting thing about your list is it highlights the inherent fruit-salad nature of trying to rank courses which have very different strengths and focus.  For those who love views, Arcadia is a treat (although frankly birdwatching would be a hell of a lot cheaper).  Those who seek challenge and have the game will love Butler and Medinah.  Those who prefer fun will favor places like Prestwick and Kingsley.  Forcing them into the same list is an exercise in futility, which points out not only the randomness and irrelevance of your list, but of most of the golf rags' as well.

[Mike Treitler]

Jud,

I completely agree... and I was actually just having this discussion with my buddies.  Its nearly impossible to rank a Butler or a Medinah against an Old Elm or a Shore Acres. It is an exercise in futility and is just really for fun. They are just COMPLETELY different and going for different things.  Its like trying to compare Wilt Chamberlin to Michael Jordan (of course we all know Jordan is the best... im from Chicago)

That is why it HAS to be subjective which my list clearly is.  I sent out the overrated and underrated list to my friends before posting it on GCA.  I think I should not have included that portion on this thread.

[Terry Lavin]

Jack,

I have played 9 of the top 100 classic list.  Beverly comes in at #98 which is probably a fair ranking.   

I have all 7 of the courses on that list in my top 40 with Skokie CC being included in my honorable mention.   

I think I probably should not have posted an Overrated list... it can be taken out of context.  My friends all rave about Beverly so much all the time and it stuck in my head as being overrated. 

To be honest while posting this there are two courses that I think are more overrated than Beverly and those are Forrest Dunes and Blue Mound. 


   

Mike, you just hit on the thing that could land Beverly  in the overrated category with some folks  - people talk about it the way they vote in Chicago:  early and often (and vocally)! 

I have a feeling that if people weren't routinely being told how great Beverly is by "friends of the Bev", they might not think of it as overrated.  I can see how someone would think of the Bev as overrated if they have a lot of friends of the Bev.

Undeniably true.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm with those who call for keeping for things in perspective.
 
For example, I could go to somewhere like Bandon, with a pre-existing expectation that Old Mac is a 10, and then be "disappointed" and call it "overrated" because its only an 8.  But at the end of the day a 8 is still a damn fine golf course.  Much like I could have low expectations and experience the opposite.
 
Just because Mike thinks some courses may have been over-rated...by his preconcived notions... doesn't mean that should be confused with "it sucked".  After all, he used to be a PGA profressional, so we have to cut him some slack for that..