Mike Treitler Index- My Annual Rankings

[Mike Treitler]

Hello GCA Friends,


I have just compiled my 2015 rankings of courses that I have played.  Feel free to bash the list or compliment it, agree with it or disagree with it etc...  This is usually a fun way to get some good GCA conversation going. 


1.Turnberry (Ailsa)
2. Bandon Trails
3. St. Andrews (Old Course)
4. Bandon Dunes
5. Carnoustie
6..Pacific Dunes
7. Whistling Straits
8. Bethpage (Black)
9. Kingsley Club
10.Arcadia Bluffs   
11.Spyglass Hill
12 Crystal Downs
13.Dunes Club
14.Kingsbarns
15 Cabo Del Sol (Ocean)
16.Milwaukee CC
17. The Rim
18.Lost Dunes
19.Old Macdonald
20. Medinah #3
21 Prestwick
22. Silverleaf
23 Lawsonia Links
24 Shore Acres
25 Greywalls at Marquette
26 Glenview Club
27. Old Elm
28. Golf Club of Scottsdale
29.St Andrews (Castle)
30.Four Seasons Punta Mita (Bahia)
31 Butler
32. Streamsong (Red)
33. Cabo Del Sol (Dessert)
34. Blackwolf Run (River)
35 Whistling Straights (Irish)
36. Quintero Ranch
37.Timberstone
38. Barton Creek (Canyons)
39. Cascata
40. Black Wolf Run (Meadow)

Honorable Mention (No Order): Erin Hills, Skokie CC, Coyote Moon, Bay Harbor

Wild Rock, Eagle Ridge (General), Pilgrims Run, TPC Deere Run, Fyre Lake, Medinah #1,

Wolfdancer, Flintrock, Austin CC, Hawks Eye, Barton Creek Foothills



Most Overrated: Knollwood, Onwentsia, Dallas National, Beverly, Erin Hills,  Oak Park CC

Most Underrated: Bandon Trails, Glenview Club, St Andrews Castle

[Jason Thurman]

On what basis are you ranking?

[Matthew Sander]

Hi Mike,


Your list is certainly your own! I appreciate that.


One question, by whom do you feel Beverly is overrated? By the mags, by GCA...? Just curious.

[J_ Crisham]

Mike-
     As a Beverly member I am curious as to why you find our course overrated? Also , how many times have you played Bev ? Looking forward to hearing your answers- jack

[Mike Treitler]

Hi Guys,

I appreciate the responses.  To be completely honest I don't have a specific ranking "system", I do tend to appreciate tougher courses and I am a sucker for aesthetics.   Over the years I have definitely started to find the charm in more classic designs.  For example, when I first went out to Lawsonia I actually liked the "woodlands" better.   Now I find that opinion to be laughable as the Links is a significantly more creative and strategic layout. 

In regards to Beverly, I think its overrated but don't mistake that for "bad".    I really enjoyed it actually.  I played it in a PGA Section event and the greens were probably running at a 13 which was awesome.  I probably do need to play it again though because I played it when I wasn't quite as interested or invested in golf course architecture. If I recall though, I remember it being a collection of 18 quality holes without any real standouts which left me underwhelmed.   I think its a really quality Chicago Country Club but not worthy of being included in the top 100 which it often is.   Dallas National for example is another nice golf course that is generally regarded as the best in Texas but I just found it to be mundane in comparison to some others I have played in Texas.

[BHoover]

How do you have the time to play that many courses in a single year?

[Chris DeToro]

This post was bound to get some response...did you not play Streamsong Blue or was that not worthy of the list?

[Jon Wiggett]

Hi Mike,

I have never heard of The Rim. Where is it and what is it like?

Jon

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Mike, thanks for posting - it is a great list in aggregate and certainly an aggressive schedule for one year, congratulations...


To be honest, you started to lose me at Turnberry as your #1, then you really lost me with me Shoreacres at #24.


This list should spark some good debate/discussion here though...

[J_ Crisham]

Hi Guys,

I appreciate the responses.  To be completely honest I don't have a specific ranking "system", I do tend to appreciate tougher courses and I am a sucker for aesthetics.   Over the years I have definitely started to find the charm in more classic designs.  For example, when I first went out to Lawsonia I actually liked the "woodlands" better.   Now I find that opinion to be laughable as the Links is a significantly more creative and strategic layout. 

In regards to Beverly, I think its overrated but don't mistake that for "bad".    I really enjoyed it actually.  I played it in a PGA Section event and the greens were probably running at a 13 which was awesome.  I probably do need to play it again though because I played it when I wasn't quite as interested or invested in golf course architecture. If I recall though, I remember it being a collection of 18 quality holes without any real standouts which left me underwhelmed.   I think its a really quality Chicago Country Club but not worthy of being included in the top 100 which it often is.   Dallas National for example is another nice golf course that is generally regarded as the best in Texas but I just found it to be mundane in comparison to some others I have played in Texas.

Mike,  Beverly has been consistently ranked in the Top 100 Golfweek Classic course list. How many of these courses have you played ?  As far as the Bev goes: Did Ross get the best possible course out of the available terrain? Are the greens and bunker complexes interesting? Is conditioning above average? Is there a better set of par 5's in Chicago ?  The stretch of 5 thru 8 has some pretty memorable holes as does 11 thru 18. In fact , the stretch of 15-18 is as strong a set of finishing holes as there is in Chicago . Beverly is consistently in everyone's  top 8 courses in Chicago - guess we can't be all things to all golfers. Out of curiosity, which club do you play out of?

[Jud_T]

Mike,

This is honestly a completely schizophrenic list.  It's hard to take anyone who rates Arcadia Bluffs and Spyglass over Crystal Downs (or for that matter Old Mac, Prestwick and Shoreacres) very seriously.

P.S.  Granted the Bev gets a lot of love here given the heavy Chicago contingent, but at #98 Classic on Golfweek, it sounds about right.  (i.e. top 150-200 in the country when including the Modern list)

[Mike Treitler]

haha wow I apologize as this was misleading!   I did NOT play all of these courses in 2015.  That would be incredible. This is my overall list since I was born... I am 30.   Which is also an issue for me when I do my rankings because I played Spyglass Hill and Bay Harbor when I was 15 years old.   So take some of this with a grain of salt. 

In regards to Streamsong (Blue)... this was an oversite!   It should actually be ranked #32 which would bump Black Wolf Run Meadow off the list.  Streamsong (Red) was meant to be #29.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

In regards to Beverly again.  Those are all fair questions that I admit I cannot answer.  Other than the fact that the conditions were excellent. I don't remember it that well to be completely honest.  However, I constantly hear how spectacular it is (which you pointed out) and it just didn't wow me when I played it.  Everyone looks for different things when they analyze a golf course and I will admit that I do not usually get that granular.   I am not nearly as experienced as some others on here when it comes to analyzing courses although I have played several great ones and I look for a "wow" factor that I did not get from Beverly.  I would be happy to give Beverly another shot any time 

[Mike Treitler]

The Rim is a beautiful and fairly new course in Payson, AZ.  Weiskopf and Morrish design http://rimgolf.com/golf

[Jud_T]

I suggest reading this:


http://www.nuzzocoursedesign.com/pdf/GAV5.pdf

[Aaron Marks]

Curious as to your ranking of Old Macdonald, especially relative to the other Bandon courses.  Anything in particular you liked so much about the others, or was it a lack-of-liking Old Mac?

[Mike Treitler]

I belong to Calumet CC... because it has an amazing deal.   

Old Macdonald is awesome.  The other three are just "that good".    Old Mac lacked some of the scenery and views that the other three had IMO.

[Mike Treitler]

Jack,

I have played 9 of the top 100 classic list.  Beverly comes in at #98 which is probably a fair ranking.   

I have all 7 of the courses on that list in my top 40 with Skokie CC being included in my honorable mention.   

I think I probably should not have posted an Overrated list... it can be taken out of context.  My friends all rave about Beverly so much all the time and it stuck in my head as being overrated. 

To be honest while posting this there are two courses that I think are more overrated than Beverly and those are Forrest Dunes and Blue Mound. 


   

[Mike Treitler]

Chris,

What are the negatives you found at Turnberry?

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks for the answer Mike. The Rim looks like a top end sort of course.

Jon

[Paul Gray]

Mike,

Turnberry better than TOC? I'm listening.

Could I also respectfully suggest that if you're coming to Britain you'd do well to get away from the trophy courses you've seen on TV. I get the impression funding isn't exactly a problem for you so Dornoch, North Berwick and Royal County Down immediately spring to mind.

[Jason Thurman]

To be completely honest I don't have a specific ranking "system", I do tend to appreciate tougher courses and I am a sucker for aesthetics.   Over the years I have definitely started to find the charm in more classic designs.  For example, when I first went out to Lawsonia I actually liked the "woodlands" better.   Now I find that opinion to be laughable as the Links is a significantly more creative and strategic layout.

Mike, this definitely helps. Knowing the basis of how you're ranking just helps to contextualize what you're posting. There's no such thing as a "correct" list, or even a "better" list as compared to another. All golf course evaluation is inherently subjective, so your list is as valid as anyone's. The only thing I like to know is what biases a person has.


My "system" is simply to rank a course based on how excited I'd be to play there tomorrow, assuming cost and travel difficulty and weather is all equal. It sounds like you've basically done the same, maybe with more emphasis on aesthetics and toughness than I'd have. Of course, that makes it hard to understand why you're so low on Erin Hills, but I can get over that. The only value any list has lies in the trust that a given person might put into it, and while I probably wouldn't use your list to build my own travel itinerary, the truth is that your emphasis on aesthetics and toughness would probably be more valuable to certain people than a list I make would be. I personally think you're nuts for having Arcadia Bluffs within 20 courses of Crystal Downs, let alone above it. But I do fear that I have friends who would agree with you.


You mention that your tastes have evolved over the last few years and that you're developing more of an appreciation for classic courses. What do you think has driven that evolution?

[Mike Treitler]

Hi Jason,

Excellent post there and I appreciate the response.   

Crystal Downs...the greens were semi-aerrated and I found the back 9 to be a bit of a dissapointment.   Arcadia Bluffs has the Lake... I will admit that pretty much sums it up.

However, once again its all context.  I played Kingsley and Crystal on the same trip and liked them both but wasn't floored... two years later I went back and played Kingsley and it was playing so fast and firm and every shot required maximum attention.  I fell in love with it so I do wonder how much more I would like Crystal Downs if I had another shot at it. 

[MClutterbuck]

I suggest reading this:


http://www.nuzzocoursedesign.com/pdf/GAV5.pdf

Thanks for sharing. Great article, lots of smart statements, other than the next to last paragraph.

[Mike Treitler]

Jason,

Why has my taste evolved?    There are a few reasons:

1.  I used to be a PGA professional so I never had to pay to play.  So I loved going to the toughest places and tipping it out.  Now I pay to play so it makes it that much more frustrating when I get beat up.  I paid $150 to play Dubsdread this year... what a waste of money as I spent the entire round frustrated.

2.  My trips to Bandon and Scotland.  I cannot stand a soft golf course now after playing across the pond.   Carnoustie is ugly but it was SO much fun to play because it was like playing off a cart path.  The creativity and thought required on every shot made it such an enjoyable experience.  "How fun is it to play" has now become a primary factor rather than "how pretty it is".

3.  Brown it out!   Aesthetics were my main interest when I was growing up.  Now I want the ball to roll and I want there to be elements of creativity in the way you approach the green.  Most classic courses seemed to recognize that golf was meant to be played on the ground. 

This is why Lawsonia Links is so fantastic.  I think the perfect definition of a great golf course is where you feel like you can birdie every hole yet you find yourself making double bogeys.  Lawsonia Links is wide open, its not long, yet it is certainly not easy. 

Considering Beverly is a Donald Ross course and considering my tastes have evolved to appreciate Ross courses more I do think I would probably sing a different tune about Beverly if or when I play it again.

[J_ Crisham]

Mike,
     It's interesting that you also consider Blue Mound overrated- I have had the good fortune to play there a few times, most recently 2 Sundays ago. What about Raynors design did you find faulty? Did he not use the available terrain pretty ingeniously ? Are the greens and bunkers not terrific? One could argue the 8th may be  Raynors best punchbowl . Is BM as good as Fishers Island? No- but it is a top 200 classic course which is very impressive. If you were to say: a course doesn't fit my eye , that's perfectly fine . But to label them as overrated? Having only played 9 of the top 100 courses your opinions regarding Beverly and BM are a bit myopic. For courses to be consistently in the top 200 makes them very good golf courses. Out of curiosity how would you rate Calumet? Would  Tom Doak  give it as high as a 3? What architectural features do you find distinctive at Calumet? A 2 according to Tom is : a mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible."play it in a scramble and drink plenty of beer" . I hope plenty of beer came with your membership "deal"