Forward forward tees

[Rick Shefchik]

Does anyone know of any clubs that have established teeing areas forward of the forward (red) tees?


At my club, many of the men are moving up from the white tees (6,500 yds) to the gold tees (5,800) as they get older. There is no equivalent for the many women who play our course, however. We have some women in their mid- to late-70s who have no alternative but to play from the same red tees (5,300) that they've always played.


One thought is to put out a set of purple tee markers ahead of the reds on level areas of the fairways so short-hitting women could also play a shorter course, and I wanted to know if any other clubs have tried something like this. We have junior plates in our fairways, but I think those are too short to be used for this purpose.

[Joe Sponcia]

My club just completed them this year.  We were just shy of 5300 I believe for the Women with very few able to reach greens in reg or have equivalent shots into greens vs. their male counterparts.  They have been popular, but were large lambasted when the idea was tossed around.  I think the new ones are around 4800.  Much, much better.  Only problem now...we have like 8 different colored tee boxes. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here in the desert, my "active adult community" club will start using yellow tees forward of the red tees after we open after overseeding in November  on each nine of our 27 hole course. Yardage will be about 1900y for each nine. These tees are intended for beginners and super seniors and tee times will be limited. We are now in a "player development program" starting with a Putters Club which now has more than 250 members. The next step is to move them to our new Golf Academy for lessons. The red tees are rated for men and women and average about 2400y for each nine.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ballyhack has moved a number of tees forward of the red tees.  They take a number of forced carries out of play and make it easier for people like my wife to reach the par fours in two.

[Ed Homsey]

Stafford CC, in western New York, has yellow tee markers permanently placed at the beginning of most par 4s and 5s.  Yardage is approx 4800.  The tees have been rated, and are frequently used by a mix of players.  I was very skeptical of it, at first, but have come to realize that there are several of our players who get greater enjoyment out of the game playing from those tees.  BTW  they require no maintenance.

[Jon Wiggett]

I noticed that Golspie has forward tees which I assume is for the Juniors.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Tees placed 'up the fairway' is a trend I've noticed at quite a few clubs over the last year or two. Maybe a spreading trend reflecting a change in the age profile of golfers now that juniors seem to be starting younger and folk at the other end of the age scale are playing golf to a greater age?
atb

[Pete Lavallee]

My wife who it's it about 160 off the tee loves playing the modern courses with  a set around 4900. Flat spots in the fairway would suit her just fine!

[BHoover]

I've seen courses with "family tees" placed way up in the fairways. But I don't think I've seen a set of forward forward tees, but it seems like a great idea.

[Criss Titschinger]

My (soon-to-be) club has what you could describe as forward forward tees that stretch out to a whopping 4,251 yards. Most of these are in level areas of fairways. They are rated by the USGA, so there's that.


There are some holes where they do have an established tee box. For example, the 6th hole is a 208 yard par 3 that's slightly uphill and requires a carry of about 170 yards or so over a valley to reach the fairway before the green. However, the forward forwards play the hole 120 yards that requires a very short carry to reach the fairway, which is in a direct line with the hole.

[Rick Shefchik]

Interesting that this is beginning to happen at other clubs, and nobody has chimed on this thread to suggest it's a bad idea. This was not meant to be a "how to save golf" thread, but there certainly seems to be a growing appetite for shorter courses.

[Adam Clayman]

Rick, It might not be a great idea if the players they are built for, won't move up there, because their egos won't let them.

At Glencoe gc, in the Chicago suburbs they built a new set for the senior Men. Apparently, they'd rather bitch about the set up, than move it up.

Lately, we play the forwards at a local course and it's just about right for my pitiful excuse of a game.

[Rick Shefchik]

Adam, the popularity of such tees would definitely be a concern. Rather than build new tees, what I would propose to my club would be to place markers where Criss suggested - level spots on the fairways. If they were used often, then we might look at a couple of new permanent tees.

[Dan Kelly]

Interesting that this is beginning to happen at other clubs, and nobody has chimed on this thread to suggest it's a bad idea. This was not meant to be a "how to save golf" thread, but there certainly seems to be a growing appetite for shorter courses.

"Executive" courses WITHIN "championship" courses?



Par-3 courses WITHIN "championship" courses?


I wonder how these would fare. I wonder if you would have to set aside certain hours of the week to play them. I'd think not.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rick,

As you know, I recommend tees as low as 4200 yards, based on the math of approx. 140 yard tee shots from forward tee players. In addition to all the courses I design or redesign, I have gone back and drawn plans for existing courses, some of which are starting with a few per year, like Wilderness at Fortune Bay.

After some initial resistance, we find most players love it.  At La Costa, a good, but 140 yard driving female said she could have hit 13 of 18 holes in regulation, and immediately wondered why we didn't do that on all 18.  Of course, sometimes ponds, slopes, etc. get in the way of placing them at any distance that is mathematically desired.

BTW, a mowed out area is seen as condescending, so it is better to build a tee and build it well.  Sometimes, we put a small ridge behind it to hide it from the back tees, as seeing a half dozen tees can be distracting.  On the other hand, if you are really concentrating, you won't see them.  Sort of reminds me of the JN "What dog?" comment from years ago......

[Paul Gray]

We've also got some now which the kids club uses on a Sunday afternoon. Currently they're shabby and just look like an after thought. In time I hope we'll do a bit more to them and, in accordance with the limited research done which suggests woman's courses should be far shorter, hope we'll brand them as forward tees for ladies and younger juniors. As far as I'm concerned, anyone should be able to play them but I suspect it'll be better to take it one stage at a time.

[Tom_Doak]

BTW, a mowed out area is seen as condescending, so it is better to build a tee and build it well.  Sometimes, we put a small ridge behind it to hide it from the back tees, as seeing a half dozen tees can be distracting.  On the other hand, if you are really concentrating, you won't see them.  Sort of reminds me of the JN "What dog?" comment from years ago......

Making the tee just part of the fairway is far superior esthetically -- it just disappears into the landscape -- and also superior for playability, since even a topped tee shot will roll for quite a ways.  We have found that nearly all short-tee players are just fine with this setup.  It's only condescending if you imply that someone who doesn't want to play these tees should be playing them.  Surely you wouldn't do that?


When you try to build a whole separate set of tees this short, you muck up the mowing lines thoroughly, and/or put a couple of tees off to the side of the fairway where they present a lousy angle of play for the golfers who use them.

[Peter Pallotta]

This is an important topic and a good discussion; but it seems that only a couple of posters so far have referenced the implicit question/challenge of the forward-of-forward tee, i.e. since in almost all cases they are literally a "design after-thought", within what framework or through what lens is anyone to understand the resulting golf holes as being in any way architecturally interesting and fun and challenging and rewarding (over and above the basic fun and challenge and rewards inherent in the game of golf itself)? But also, if we conclude that there is no such lens, does it matter much?
Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:


It depends on the course, of course, but strategy doesn't begin and end with fairway bunkers.  The positioning of hazards around the green and on the approach create strategy for the player who only hits it 100 yards at a time. And most of them can hit it pretty straight, because they don't hit it very far, so they are able to utilize strategy more than the wild bomb and gouger.

[Ed Homsey]

I believe that part of the success of Stafford CC's forward-forward tees (4800 course) is that there was not fanfare that pronounced the tees as being for any particular group of players.  They are placed in a flat area of the fairway and mowed at fairway height.  Some old guys and gals play them, but mostly younger juniors.  I notice that a lot of us old, and some not so old, guys are increasingly playing a combination of tees that, overall, measure about 6000 yards.  15 years ago, it would not have happened.  But, times have changed.

[Peter Pallotta]

Peter:


It depends on the course, of course, but strategy doesn't begin and end with fairway bunkers.  The positioning of hazards around the green and on the approach create strategy for the player who only hits it 100 yards at a time. And most of them can hit it pretty straight, because they don't hit it very far, so they are able to utilize strategy more than the wild bomb and gouger.

Thanks, you're right of course and I'm surprised I hadn't realized/remembered that before posting. And now I find myself going in the completely opposite direction, and wondering how/why the term "second shot golf course" ever started to have negative connotations.

[Sean_A]

This is an important topic and a good discussion; but it seems that only a couple of posters so far have referenced the implicit question/challenge of the forward-of-forward tee, i.e. since in almost all cases they are literally a "design after-thought", within what framework or through what lens is anyone to understand the resulting golf holes as being in any way architecturally interesting and fun and challenging and rewarding (over and above the basic fun and challenge and rewards inherent in the game of golf itself)? But also, if we conclude that there is no such lens, does it matter much?
Peter

Pietro


As I am sure you know, Kington has no bunkers and while a short course anyway, it has added a forward set of tees....way forward...in the fairways.  The design of the course and terrain ensures that nearly any shot from any position requires some thinking and execution.  While I agree with Tom that proper well forward tees can cause visual and maintenance grief; I think at least sometimes proper tees are warranted...if for not for any other reason than as a target to aim for from the "real" tees  .  Imagine a 10 year old lugging his sticks from a green to a spot 150 yards down the fairway...on nearly every bloody hole only to be greeted by pegs in the ground.  I know if it were me as a 10 year old, that scenario would not fly.  I would have played two holes as it were.  One from the real tee to the forward tee and then to the green. 


If done right, forward tees wouldn't be any more awkward then current forward tees.  Sure, some forward tees would require grassing lines to be altered, but that is no horrible thing and a good trade off to get kids in the game.  We must all remember that golf is first about function. Any good archie or super should be able to figure out how to make the visuals at the very least reasonable.  Afterall, that is what they are meant to do and I have full confidence that they can do it.


Ciao 

[archie_struthers]

 




I think the clutter of an endless succession of tees to fit every handicap and age group is a visual nightmare . I'm all for players playing forward as they age , making for a fun experience. However enough is enough.


My preference is a daily tee for the majority of players and  a forward tee for those who desire to play a shorter course .  The plethora of tee boxes really leaves me cold from an architectural perspective .

[John Percival]

Rick,
Forest Dunes in Michigan (on the original C/C course) has an amazing set of forward tees,
They are constructed just like the other tees and are located in some VERY cool sites, with the best at #18...a Cape shot for the kids.

They are even included in the yardage book!
The tee distances total 3087 yds

[Niall C]

In recent years a number of the courses up here including my own home course have put in tee pegs down the fairway. Generally they are located beyond any carry off the nromal tees ie. rough, gorse, heather etc. and are at the side of the fairway. From an aesthetic point of view I agree with Tom in that they look better and are less conspicuous than a tee box.


I surmise (I've never been told) that the purpose is so short hitters/seniors don't have a carry they can't manage. It's not for scoring purposes as such, just for those that can't manage the challenge off the normal tees. I assume those that play from that tee don't have a handicap and are beyond caring what there score is, although I could be wrong.


Niall