Hasn't the emphasis on medal play dramatically altered architecture

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

you really are a strange old bird. Just because you repeatedly state something does not make it true. If you faced a 15 foot down hill putt and you two putts to win only a numbskull (I understand this might be a description of you) would give the first putt a real go and in doing so risk facing a longish putt back.


Jon,

The only reason I've repeated myself is because you don't get it.

You really are a dense bird.

In your example above, you're already on the green.
You've completely ignored your tee shot, you've completely ignored your approach shot and a possible recovery shot.


Any other player would lag the putt to ensure the win thus not trying to achieve the lowest possible score but rather securing the win. And even if you do not know where you stand most players would still lag the first putt.

Right, lag it and leave it 3 feet short
Since when does trying to make a downhill putt mean that you're going to hit it well beyond the hole ?
I'm going to try to make it and if I miss it, leave myself a tap in.

How much competitive tournament golf have you played ?

I do not expect you will understand it but never mind.

Correct Rob but Pat will never admit he understands this and therefor is wrong. He will constantly try to redefine and alter what he is saying rather than do this.


Jon, why have you repeatedly refused to answer my questions ?

How much competitive golf have you played ?
What's your handicap and what's your objective when you stand on the tee ?

Thanks for the rise Pat your just so transparent

What question has not been more than adequately answered?

I haven't overlooked the tee shot, etc. they are just not relevant to the example.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

you really are a strange old bird. Just because you repeatedly state something does not make it true. If you faced a 15 foot down hill putt and you two putts to win only a numbskull (I understand this might be a description of you) would give the first putt a real go and in doing so risk facing a longish putt back.


Jon,

The only reason I've repeated myself is because you don't get it.

You really are a dense bird.

In your example above, you're already on the green.
You've completely ignored your tee shot, you've completely ignored your approach shot and a possible recovery shot.


Any other player would lag the putt to ensure the win thus not trying to achieve the lowest possible score but rather securing the win. And even if you do not know where you stand most players would still lag the first putt.

Right, lag it and leave it 3 feet short
Since when does trying to make a downhill putt mean that you're going to hit it well beyond the hole ?
I'm going to try to make it and if I miss it, leave myself a tap in.

How much competitive tournament golf have you played ?

I do not expect you will understand it but never mind.

Correct Rob but Pat will never admit he understands this and therefor is wrong. He will constantly try to redefine and alter what he is saying rather than do this.


Jon, why have you repeatedly refused to answer my questions ?

How much competitive golf have you played ?
What's your handicap and what's your objective when you stand on the tee ?

Thanks for the rise Pat your just so transparent

What question has not been more than adequately answered?
 
1.  Whether you've played in tournaments.
2.  What your handicap is

I haven't overlooked the tee shot, etc. they are just not relevant to the example
 
Of course the tee shot, the approach shot and the recovery are important.
 
Tell us, as you stand on the tee, what's your objective on the hole ?.

[Ryan Coles]

I'll answer for him.

He's a pro, Scratch at 16.

You're wrong on this one, Pat.

On the tee it depends on the score, if you're three up with three to go and in receipt of a stroke, you're strategy is unlikely to be as aggressive as if roles were reversed.

If your opponent is already in the trees, this will effect your strategy. Matchplay is far more nuanced than dunderhead 'make the lowest score possible'.

Quite simply the aim is not lowest score, it's beat the opponent on that hole, or half in the above scenario.

Perhaps this lack of comprehension of basic matchplay principles is why you morons can't seem to win a Ryder or Walker Cup lately.

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks Ryan, you beat me to it

Patrick,

if mimicry is the highest form of praise then I am flattered but you should really have a grasp of what you are copying before you do. 'dense bird' really Pat

Yes I have played tournaments both as an amateur and professionally. My last handicap as a 16 year old was 0.2. These days as I do not play as much maybe one or two full rounds a month I have mixed results but recon my handicap would be between 1 and 3.

My objective on the tee depends on the situation and the hole. In matchplay depending on the score it is to win or draw the hole by equalling or beating my opponent. If I am ahead and can close out the match on a tough hole with a half I am going to look to shoot a par and let my opponent take the risks associated with going for a birdie.

In strokeplay again it depends on the hole but it is very rarely the thought of going for the lowest possible score as you suggest it should be. However, when I am facing a putt the tee shot, the approach shot and the recovery shot are totally irrelevant. Only the putt matters.

It is not that I do not get your position it is just that your position is wrong and repeating it over and over again does not make it right. Your idea of always playing for the best possible result maybe true for the blue eyed beginner but for most players it is incorrect.

If you are stood on the 16th tee at Cypress Point and are 3 up. Then your opponent slices their tee shot way off into the water so is facing 3 off the tee do you still go for the best possible score of birdie or play left and for a par/bogie? Yes, I know you would still go right at because you would knock it stiff and hole the putt but 99.9% of golfers would play for the par/bogie. Most players do not have the same 'trumpellian' delusions about their game as you display.

*Trumpellia is the delusion of believing the thing you do or own is the greatest ever of its kind on the planet when it is plainly not.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Well done Ryan and Jon for the elegant way you allowed Mr Moochy to make a complete tit of himself before finally plunging the stiletto.   

Very enjoyable   

[Rob Marshall]

Jon,
Not to defend Pat but I think he was referring to medal play. Match is obvious because you know where you stand. In medal play you may or may not know. If you have knowledge of the field you are correct.

[JESII]

In match play...do you wizards seriously stand on the tee before anyone has played a shot and think of something other than how best to play the hole?

For you, on that day, this is golf!

[Ryan Coles]

Jim

Of course you should. You guys seem fixated on pencil and scorecard.

If your opponent is struggling for example and you have a lead on a par 3. You're going middle of the green rather than pin hunting. Or at least you'll consider it.

I'm amazed that you guys cant see the different strategies in matchplay and these don't always fit with 'lowest score'.

Do you all put on Hal Sutton hats and just go and blast it out of bounds Mickelson at Oakland Hills style?

[Duncan Cheslett]

I'm reminded of my one experience  playing pool in the US, at the Veterans of Foreign  Wars Club in Heber Springs, Arkansas.

Unable to pot one of my balls, I carefully manipulated to cue ball  back to the far cushion denying my opponent a clear shot at one of his balls. A "snooker", in other words.

I was immediately  rounded on by the irate locals and angrily accused of playing "sneaky  pool".

Apparently  my action should gave been to smash the remaining  triangle as hard as possible  to break  the stalemate.

I suspect our matchplay tactics would be viewed unfavourably as "sneaky golf"!

 

[Mark Pearce]

In match play...do you wizards seriously stand on the tee before anyone has played a shot and think of something other than how best to play the hole?

For you, on that day, this is golf!

But how best to play the hole depends on the match situation, doesn't it? 
 
A few years back I had a one hole lead in a match against a low handicap player standing on the 18th tee.  He was giving me a shot.  The 18th is a long, uphill par 4 with cross bunkers 50 yards short of the green which, for me, can be difficult to carry unless I have hit a good drive.  It's a very tough drive with out of bounds right and a tough 4 and very tough birdie even for very good players.  If I have a decent card going in a medal then I'll try to hit a long drive to leave an iron in and make a two-putt 4.  In that match no-way was I going to risk OOB, I was going to make him make 3 to win the hole.  I hit 3 wood off the tee, laid up with a 7 iron, and pitched on.  I made a very solid 5, he made a very good 4.  I won the match.

[JESII]

Yes Mark, it does.


Is it fair to say your stroke average on that 18th hole would be pretty similar if you played it conservatively 20 times to playing it with driver 20 times?


Sounds like the 3 wood tee shot would result in mostly 5's, a few 4's and the odd 6.


The Driver tee shot would result is mostly 5's, a number of 4's and a number of 6's.


In other words, the scenario you describe is at least debatable as to which is the better way to play the hole.


Interestingly, most people cite medal play as the more boring style yet in this instance you describe, the allure of shooting a good 18 holes score makes the hole more exciting/interesting for you than when you're trying to win a match from 1 up.

[Mark Pearce]

Jim,
 
I haven't done the analysis but playing both ways I agree that I mostly make 5.  With the driver I probably make slightly more 4s than 6s but I also make some 7s (if I hit it OOB I'm effectively expecting to make a 5 on my second ball) and possibly worse.  Playing conservatively off the tee I guess the 4s and 6s are roughly equal in number but I make almost no 7s or worse.  In medal play I believe but can't be sure, that my average score is slightly better than 5 playing driver off the tee. 
 
Of course, if in that match I had been one down on the 18th, I'd almost certainly have hit driver because I'd have needed the 4.  If we'd been all square I'd probably also have hit driver.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,
Not to defend Pat but I think he was referring to medal play. Match is obvious because you know where you stand. In medal play you may or may not know. If you have knowledge of the field you are correct.

Rob,

Pat made it clear he meant both forms.

Duncan,

it is not always the nicest of tasks but someone's got to do it.

Jon