Ann Arbor battle Royale of the titans (Farms, BHCC, & UM)

[BCowan]

The rules and game are simple.  Hole by hole match play with three courses.  Each hole gets ranked 1, 2, 3.  Add up the totals for 18 holes and lowest total wins.  Would anyone like to play along? 

[Mark Saltzman]

I'm certainly interested in participating though it's been too long since I've played Radrick to compare it to the others. And, unfortunately, my computer crashed today with my notes and photos from UM and BH. Hopefully I can get it recovered tomorrow!

[Matt Bielawa]

Sure, why not.  #1:  Barton > UM > Radrick.

[BCowan]

Alright Matty b is in.  I'll elaborate my choices why tomrw.  First hole was a hard one, had me thinking all day yesterday.

Farms 1
Barton 2
UM 3

Farms,  The first hole is a very enjoyable way to start a round.  I've racked my brain trying to conclude if the fairway bunker on the left is needed.  The land moves left to right.  Busting a drive to the right side gives a good player a view of the green and a good angle to hit the Par 5 in two.  A weaker player has a nice lay up to the right side of the fairway giving one a good angle.  The green is treacherous in the back. Getting above the hole when the greens are rolling 9-10 is a very tough two putt.  The ugly trees behind the green need to be removed.  The green on the first is very good and can lead to bogies when It's not taken seriously.  All in all it's a really good starting hole imo.

Barton,  The fairway is very generous for the length of the hole.  It matches scale well imo.  The hole is slightly uphill and very long for an opening hole.  The green is very interesting for a long hole and of good size.  I don't particularly like starting on a ball buster unless it's exceptional. 

UofM, I really feel this hole is underrated.  The negatives are more in maint. meld and OB.  The native on the right wasn't planted properly and is very thick, leading me to hit long irons off the tee to get it in play.  The hole originally was a par 4 I believe.  The hole is hit able in two by longer players in the afternoon when It's firmer.  The line is to start at the fairway bunkers on the left and hit a litzke power fade to the left half of the fairway.  For the average guy the road that crosses the fairway for football game parking needs to be covered with mulch and they need to replace the rough up to the road with fairway.  That drastically affects the continuity of the hole.  For the one going for this in two the bunkers to the right that are 50 yards from the green are perfectly placed for weak shots fading to the right.  The other negative to this hole is that the green is 10 yards right of the OB fence and road.  The green is fantastic and one of my favorites.  Very easy to 3 putt and it makes one pay attention from a 100 yards out for a 3rd shot.   

 

[Mark Saltzman]

OK, going from memory here… the openers at both UM and BH would not rate among the best on the course.  UM's par-5 is a rather nondescript par-5, especially for those playing the hole as a three-shotter, whose primary interest is at the green.  The 1st at BH is a simple, strategic hole where the golfer will want to play near the fairway bunkers to leave an approach to an open green front.  The massively expanded green with its perimeter run-offs, pair of raised corners and subtle internal movement is really what wins the hole for BH.


BH 1up

[Tim Leahy]

Hope it is a better battle than the NW game was.

[Aaron McMaster]

OK, going from memory here… the openers at both UM and BH would not rate among the best on the course.  UM's par-5 is a rather nondescript par-5, especially for those playing the hole as a three-shotter, whose primary interest is at the green.  The 1st at BH is a simple, strategic hole where the golfer will want to play near the fairway bunkers to leave an approach to an open green front.  The massively expanded green with its perimeter run-offs, pair of raised corners and subtle internal movement is really what wins the hole for BH.


BH 1up

K was told by thread moderator I wasn't following the rules of this format.


First hole........BH nothing interesting huge unmisable fairway flip wedge decent green, short par 5's at RF and UM, tough green at RF, green needs to be expanded to original pad at um.  None of the 3 are that good (tie)

[Mark Saltzman]

Isn't the first hole at BH around 450 yards? That's not a drive and flip wedge for many...

[Mark Saltzman]

I'd love if Jud T would participate on this thread.  I have a feeling a few of the people already have their minds made up about which course will win, but I think he can give a pretty impartial view.

[Sean_A]

The other negative to this hole (UofM #1) is that the green is 10 yards right of the OB fence and road. 

I strongly disagree with this statement.  The hole is a relatively short par 5.  The OOB quickens the pulse for anybody wishing to reach in two, but isn't overly onerous off the tee because of the slight legging to the right. It is a very exacting shot with a tough green to cope with. This is a great example of risk/reward, especially for a lateral feature.  If Dr Mac/Max didn't want to feature OOB the green would be further right.  If the hole is up front it may be wise to lay-up regardless of one's smash mouth golf abilities. There needs to be more fairway right, but alas, people that practice get in the way.  The visual blandness of the hole may cloud the judgement of people.

Ciao

[BCowan]

I'd love if Jud T would participate on this thread.  I have a feeling a few of the people already have their minds made up about which course will win, but I think he can give a pretty impartial view.

That is hilarious.  The same guy who bemoans clay and worships thee ole sand loves Barton.  The irony in which Barton has some of the nastiest clay soil in Ann Arbor.  Which I don't mind.  It would help to find one more consistent in views.  Your boy even went to UofM and disses UofM as overrated only due to Dr Mack involvement is it considered good.  He told me at the mashie.  Somebody memorizes the CG too much.  I'd love for him to participate too. 

Explain how I have my mind made up?  Others have their minds made up in regards to thee farms and UofM.  As in the confidential guide and Pete expressed his own dislike for thee farms when its one of his best courses imo (we are told what to like).  I'm ultra critical of thee farms and UofM.  Please find your farm notes.  I am the only one on here so far that has any reasonable view on Barton.  I think the removal of the puddle and pond on 6 and 10, and cutting down 1000 trees would elevate it 1.5 points.  Fixing the 9th and 12th green is another point. 

Sean,

    I was trying to be ultra picky.  I don't mind the out of bounds left of the green.  I think #1 at UofM is a solid opener and the maint. meld is really whats off with the road rough and the improperly planted non fescue on the right off the tee. 

Aaron,

 If you are hitting a flip wedge you need to stop playing the ladies tees.  I hit like a 3 iron in that was late fall.  Gotta be something like a 6 iron- 3 iron in depending on weather. 

[Matt Bielawa]

UM:  What makes this hole really interesting to me is its placement in the round.  It should be a fairly easy par, but most would be craving a birdie when standing on the tee.  I can't think of many courses that open up with a half-par hole, where the par is half too high.  With the stretch of tough holes that come after #1, there is added pressure on the player not to miss an opportunity to score on this one, and with no driving range, there is a bit of extra uncertainty when you make that first (and second) swing of the day.  If the hole were buried elsewhere on the course, I'd give it a meh, but as #1, I love it.


RF:  This hole has never done it for me.  The fairway bunker on the left makes no sense strategically.  Honestly, the bunker on the left in the landing zone of a layup doesn't make any sense either.  For me, #1 is probably the least interesting hole on the front nine.


BH:  I've played BH far less than the other two, but I've liked this hole when I've played it.  And yes, I've come in with 5 wood before...certainly not a flip wedge for most players. 

[Will E]

A fairway you can't miss and a driver flip wedge? Okay, I'm convinced you've never played Barton. I think Lee Janzen had 5 iron in.

Barton 1- very cool tee shot with fairway bunkering left and fescue right, lots of interesting bunkering approaching the green, and a green with massive internal contouring.

Radrick 2- a fine opener with no real interest other than a sloped green, easy to make 4 on and get the day started

UM 3- agreed with the maintenance issue, the hole will improve when the green is moved off of State street.

[BCowan]

If u do miss the fairway at 1 uve shanked it.  I did  .  Green is strong part at 1.  I've hit anywhere from wedge to 3 iron into 1 at orchard lake, so ur not taking wind and firmness into acct.  I assure you Aarons played the course.  I don't agree with flip wedge.

Radrick opener is hardly just the green. Longer hitters catch speed slot. The more one hugs the fairway bunker with a hard litzke like fade the more distance they pick up.  So driver 5 iron for long hitting Janzen is a good opener for a course? 

They better not move the green at 1 at UM, I'll protest.  The green isn't much different in relation to OB as kingsley 14th.  I placed it last as an effort to not show bias.

[Aaron McMaster]

A fairway you can't miss and a driver flip wedge? Okay, I'm convinced you've never played Barton. I think Lee Janzen had 5 iron in.

Barton 1- very cool tee shot with fairway bunkering left and fescue right, lots of interesting bunkering approaching the green, and a green with massive internal contouring.

Radrick 2- a fine opener with no real interest other than a sloped green, easy to make 4 on and get the day started

UM 3- agreed with the maintenance issue, the hole will improve when the green is moved off of State street.

I've hit between 8-sw on 1 at BH, now if I played it in a strong breeze it might take 6 or 7 iron but the half dozen time I've played it it plays short.  Doesn't change the fact that I don't think it's got an edge over the others as an opener. 


I think you'll see when I get to the green renovations at BH you'll realize I've played it.


Ben, I can't help it if I hit it.....oh just forget it.  Move on to the next hole.

[BCowan]

Hole #2  (All solid holes and a tough call is in order)

1- UofM, I really enjoy the 2nd at UofM.  Starting off with a blind tee shot, one sees a pine tree at which they are to aim at and keep inside of.  Right by the pine tree is a bunker that I would like to see fairway bleed into and rough removed.  Arble I'd imagine would agree.  The great thing about #2 is due to the wind and how solid of a poke, one has anywhere from wedge to 2 iron in.  The hole is a gentler par 4 version of #17 at Kingsley.  If one busts a drive they will end up down the hill with a wedge or 9 iron in.  Assuming the tee shot isn't into the wind.  I really enjoy these types of holes.  The green is very tame for a Dr Mack course and fits well in with the scale and length of the hole

2- Farms,  This hole has the look and feel of a Dye hole imo.  On the tee shot you are looking down hitting through somewhat of a chute.  The hole is only 370.  One is tempted to hit driver and hit a high draw or cut past the large tree in the left rough.  A 2 iron stinger or bunt 3 wood works very well.  I think the tree on the left needs to be removed.  It's to invasive and the right side is the ideal line anyway with greenside trouble short left of the green.  The green is very cool.  A ridge off the right jets out and going long is a difficult up and down.  Just a really fun Drive and pitch hole. 

3- Barton, The 2nd at Barton is very good.  An enjoyable par 5 that doesn't have any weakness.  It would be #1 on many of the holes list, it just has deep competition for hole 2.   

[Matt Bielawa]

Sorry for the delay.

As Ben points out, all three #2's are pretty good, so there is really no obvious best or worst in my opinion.

UM:  There are a couple awkward walks between holes at UM, and the walk from #1 to #2 is definitely one of them.  I've always wondered how many first timers go from the 1st green right to the 8th tee.  Regardless, after walking around behind the 7th green, you get to the 2nd tee, where all you can see if a wall of rough and the tops of a couple trees in front of you.  A first-timer would have absolutely no idea how to manage this blind tee shot.  It requires a high draw, or straight ball, with fades unlikely to produce a good result.  From the top of the hill, it's around 200 or so into a green you can see, but you can trim that to 150 or so if you can carry it down the hill.  With that said, getting down the hill makes the approach shot fairly blind and well uphill again.  The holes are not even close to similar, but strategically, it's a bit of the decision you face at #7 of Crystal Downs...a longer approach were you can see the target, or a shorter one that's blind.  For my game, this is one of the hardest holes on the course.

RF:  A fun hole, as long as you can hit an accurate tee ball.  I don't really see the look and feel of Dye--there isn't really much at RF that has the look and feel of Dye in my opinion.  The best play is a fairway wood or long iron out onto the right side of the fairway, or the right rough.  Left presents a lot of trouble on the approach shot, both via trees and a DEEP bunker that fronts the green from that angle.  From the right, it's an uphill shot into a decent green.  I see what Ben's saying about the tree on the left, but I'd leave it there.

BH:  A nice par 5 with good movement throughout the hole and good bunkering, with two bunkers that pinch the landing zone for the second shot.

I really struggle ranking these three.  If there was a gun to my head, I'd probably say the same order as Ben...UM > RF > BH, but it isn't with a great deal of conviction.

[Sean_A]

UofM's second is actually quite clever and really makes what is a very good routing work.  The 2nd allows 7 & 8 to play down and up the hill which runs toward State St thus breaking up the north/south pattern of the remainder of the front 9.  Think of the course spreading out from a high point of 10 green and 7/11 tees. Except for the periphery holes such as 1 and 14, holes flow at least marginally away or toward this point on all sides.


The original plan called for the 2nd to play steeply uphill and the 3rd to come back down the hill in the area south of #7 and encroaching into today's 3rd.  The 4th (using the corridor for today's 2nd) would then have been a much shorter hole. 



I think the second is a very, very good hole. I appreciate the blindness, but as with many holes, it is the green which is a standout quality.  For me, this is the bottom line as to why Radrick isn't in the same class as the Blue, the difference in green quality is night and day.


Ciao   

[BCowan]

S,

   I agree with all your points in regards to the routing at UofM.  It's always good to have a short walk to the 2nd tee after I've bogeyed the 1st hole and I'm talking to myself trying to figure out how one bogey's the first  .

  I agree that the greens are better at UofM, but the Farms has some very good greens, #1, #2, #5, #7, #8, #10, #14.  The back 9 at the Farms ends on a real sour note (15-18)... 

[Dustin Ferrell]

Just to catch up without explanation, I'd probably go:  Full disclosure, I have hundreds of Barton Rounds, maybe 20 at UM and 10 at Radrick, so might miss some of the details on UM and Radrick.  Will add more commentary going forward...


1.)   BH  :  I actually think its a super strong starter hole that is no easy par unless you are playing it from the front tees.
       RF  :  Nice gentle start with a pretty interesting green, but generally thinking 4 if a decent tee ball.
       UM  :  A touch awkward against the OB, but generally my complaint is more that its not super interesting until you get to the green where there are some tough up and downs if you short side yourself.


2.)   UM:  I know some don't like blind tee shots, but I think its a real challenging 4 par where even after a good tee ball you have to think about the placement of the approach if you want to make 4.
       BH:  Really solid par 5 that is much improved with the bunkering since the restoration work last couple years.
       RF:  Solid short par 4 no doubt and would be higher if I didn't find the 2nd of the others so good.  Usually a hybrid, short iron for me, with a good green.  No complaints... 

[Dan Ackerberg]

I'll chime in mainly on UM and Radrick, as I have much more experience on these.


#1:  R > UM - Both these holes are in my bottom third on their respective courses.  Not much of interest for me until the greens, and I think Radrick's is more interesting.


#2: UM > R - I really like the second at UM.  The blind tee shot is fun - optimally a draw off the big tree on the right (and some pretty challenging fairway bunkers if the draw doesn't happen), and a fun uphill approach.  It reminds me of an easier version of Yale #10 - a hole I love but was never able to play well.   Radrick #2 - not such an interesting tree shot, but a fun approach shot and green.


#3: UM > R - I am not a big fan of #3 at Radrick - unless you really connect with your drive, the trees on the inside of the dogleg are going to block the green.  #3 at UM is an unusual par 5 with almost a 90 degree left turn in the layup area, but I really like it.  There's a great, expansive view off the tee through a valley and up a hill, and if you clear the hilltop you can get a nice roll.  Second shot goes down into another valley at the sharp dogleg.  The 3rd shot fascinates me since there is something awkward about it that particularly challenges me.   I can't exactly put my finger on it but it might be a combination of 1) the sharp turn in the fairways making it sometimes a little hard to get a precise yardage and 2) a slight cant to the fairway that seems to make it hard for me to hit the small green perched into the left side of a hill.  It has fun green too - it is quite tough being above the hole.

[Nigel Islam]

Sorry for the delay.

As Ben points out, all three #2's are pretty good, so there is really no obvious best or worst in my opinion.

UM:  There are a couple awkward walks between holes at UM, and the walk from #1 to #2 is definitely one of them.  I've always wondered how many first timers go from the 1st green right to the 8th tee.  Regardless, after walking around behind the 7th green, you get to the 2nd tee, where all you can see if a wall of rough and the tops of a couple trees in front of you.  A first-timer would have absolutely no idea how to manage this blind tee shot.  It requires a high draw, or straight ball, with fades unlikely to produce a good result.  From the top of the hill, it's around 200 or so into a green you can see, but you can trim that to 150 or so if you can carry it down the hill.  With that said, getting down the hill makes the approach shot fairly blind and well uphill again.  The holes are not even close to similar, but strategically, it's a bit of the decision you face at #7 of Crystal Downs...a longer approach were you can see the target, or a shorter one that's blind.  For my game, this is one of the hardest holes on the course.

RF:  A fun hole, as long as you can hit an accurate tee ball.  I don't really see the look and feel of Dye--there isn't really much at RF that has the look and feel of Dye in my opinion.  The best play is a fairway wood or long iron out onto the right side of the fairway, or the right rough.  Left presents a lot of trouble on the approach shot, both via trees and a DEEP bunker that fronts the green from that angle.  From the right, it's an uphill shot into a decent green.  I see what Ben's saying about the tree on the left, but I'd leave it there.

BH:  A nice par 5 with good movement throughout the hole and good bunkering, with two bunkers that pinch the landing zone for the second shot.

I really struggle ranking these three.  If there was a gun to my head, I'd probably say the same order as Ben...UM > RF > BH, but it isn't with a great deal of conviction.

On your point about going to 8 tee at UM, I was thankfully spared embarrassment last week by my buddy. However this is an outstanding hole despite its blind tee shot that said friend almost killed the group hitting to three from our fairway.

[BCowan]

Dan,

   Welcome..


Hole #3

1. UofM, This par 5 is the best par 5 I've played period.  I'd like to see a 2-3 of the spruces taken down by #4 tee and some of the green reclaimed.  The fairway bunker is placed brilliantly.  A fan or wipe off the tee to the right will catch the bunker if one is playing the right tees.  Making par from there is a tough order.  The longer hitter fading on around it will have a tough shot at hitting this green in two off a down hill lie.  The short hitter can think about hitting short of the fairway bunker and then hitting a long iron to leave a short iron to this treacherous green that slopes right to left hard.  Get above the hole and one is most likely going to trickle off the green with their putt.  The beauty of this green imo is a half chippy like 3rd shot can be required to take spin off and land the ball in the right area. 

2. Barton, This long par 4 is interesting.  A nice fairway cant from right to left.  I'd like to see much more trees removed on the left side and behind the green.  The green accepts a long iron in nicely, pin cut on left side is very difficult to get close.  The swale which was implemented in the changes is nice feature but it needs to be tweaked.  It makes for an interesting putt if the pin is in the front and ur ball is past pin high. 

3.  Farms,  The tee shot is good.  I really think the greenside bunkers could be much more interesting. Not really a fan of the 2nd shot, even though the hole is solid, it could be a lot better imo. 

[BCowan]

Aaron and Matt need hole 3

Hole #4,

Barton 1, this is a great short par 4.  Solid Ross hole. 

Radrick 2, nice par 3.  Requires carry to a raised green.  Would like to have tree removal behind the green. 

UM 3, tree removal is really needed on both sides. That is really what holds the hole back.  Really nice Dr Mack green with many great pin placements.

 

[Nigel Islam]

At UM I really like how #2 & 4 work with blind tee shots. Still very cool holes though.