[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

The tee shot on # 16 may be more difficult because unlike # 7 you can't lay up off the tee with a 4 iron and still have a relatively short and benign approach, whereas the approach into # 16 is long and demanding.

[Jim Hoak]

It isn't the tightness of the #7 drive that I object to--nor the fact that the hole feels out of place on such a great course.  It is the appearance of the hole, the excessive repetition of the trees, the bowling alley look and feel of the hole.  There is no break in the alignment of the trees, so it looks totally man-made.  I would like to see a more natural look to the drive, which could be achieved by the removal of half plus of the trees.  I agree that the green complex is very good.

[Kalen Braley]

Pat.
 
7 and 16 aren't that different yardage wise.  #7 is only 30 yards shorter than 16, and 16 is not a long par 4, (387 from the tips, 365 from the middle tees).  Additionally, 16 has plenty of width where one can easily play a 3 wood off the tee, leaving a short approach, so claiming the approach into 16 is long is just not true...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat.
 
7 and 16 aren't that different yardage wise.  #7 is only 30 yards shorter than 16, and 16 is not a long par 4, (387 from the tips, 365 from the middle tees).
 
Kalen,
 
"Only" 30 yards shorter ?
 
An 8-iron vs a 5-iron ?
 
And, at # 16, there's a "demand" carry, where no such carry exists at #7.
 
In addition, when the hole is cut on the back tier, I think the yardage differential increases..
 
I'll par and birdie # 7 more often than I'll par and birdie # 16.
 
 
 
  Additionally, 16 has plenty of width where one can easily play a 3 wood off the tee, leaving a short approach, so claiming the approach into 16 is long is just not true...

[Michael Essig]

Kalen, to add to Patrick's comments, #16 is a dog leg, arguably the way the green is situated it is almost a double dog leg - draw off the tee, and a fade into the green.  On #16, you just can't lay back down the fairway, and if you choose driver or 3-wood, you better hit a draw or you risk OB.  In contrast, #7 is dead straight.  Additionally, about the only flat spot for your second shot on #16 is the end of the fairway, if you lay back you have a downhill lie.  Of course, the fact that all of these little things are present on #16 is why it is such a great hole.  It is a par 4.5 of only 386 yards.
#7 is a simple tee shot, except for the width.
I will agree with JH, those trees on the left are not pretty and are inconsistent with the rest of the course and they should be replaced, but I have no problem with the shot demanded of you.
 

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,
 
Exactly what is a "demand" carry and how does it differ from a normal carry?  And i'm not buying that someone like you is going to have a 5 iron approach on a 380 yard hole.  You can hit a 5 iron off that tee and still only be hitting a 8 iron into that green.  I'm a short knocker and I hit 3 wood/ 7 iron on that hole.
 
Mike,
 
I think your memory is failing you a bit, 16 is not a double dog leg.  Its a gentle dog leg from the tee that favors a draw, but the approach in from the fairway is straight.  Go check Google Maps again.
 
As for #7, to say its "a simple tee shot except for the width" is kind of like saying a 5 foot putt on #8 is easy, except its above the hole.  Once again, consult Google Maps....that fairway is half as wide as any other fairway on the course

[Michael Essig]

Mike,
 
I think your memory is failing you a bit, 16 is not a double dog leg.  Its a gentle dog leg from the tee that favors a draw, but the approach in from the fairway is straight.  Go check Google Maps again.
 
As for #7, to say its "a simple tee shot except for the width" is kind of like saying a 5 foot putt on #8 is easy, except its above the hole.  Once again, consult Google Maps....that fairway is half as wide as any other fairway on the course

I will be the first to concede that my memory is failing. 
I said it was "like" a double dogleg because it was a draw tee shot and a fade second.  I will concede that you can hit a straight second shot, but the way the green angles left to right, and the big bunker on the right begs for you to hit a fade into the green, especially a back tier pin, which is the way it has been on four of my five plays. 
As for #7, it is a simple tee shot because there is no penalty for getting it wrong - no OB, no unplayable, no gunch and lost ball, and no water.  If I can hit an iron off the tee, and still get to the green with a short iron, then it is a simple tee shot.  But how many people have the patience to hit a 5 or 4 iron off the tee?  I understand that some people cannot hit a 200 yard 4-iron like I can, but hopefully you have a 200 yard 3-wood or 5-wood in your bag, and if not, then maybe you should be playing up another set of tees (although on this hole there is no break in distance for the change of tees  ).
But let's break the hole down.  The hole is only 335 yards from the middle tees.  I could hit two 6-irons and possibly two 7-irons from the middle tees and get to the green.   So when I say a 5 or 4-iron, it is only so I will only have a 9 or 8-iron to the green; a 5 or 4-iron are the longest clubs in my bag that I am supremely confident I can hit the fairway with.  But even a shorter hitter, playing from the proper tees, has no reason to ever hit driver on #7.  So, if a hole is giving you - Kalen - a shorter hitter, the opportunity to hit a long iron or hybrid off the tee and that conservative tee shot will leave you a short to middle iron to the green, doesn't all of that make the tee shot simple?
Ask yourself this: based on the length of the hole, what would we say about the hole's tee shot if the corridor was wider?  Out of place because it is too easy?  What is a reasonable width when you can hit a long-iron off the tee?  Or is it the inability to move the ball left-to-right or right-to-left because of the height of the trees that is so off-putting?
None of this analysis changes the fact that the trees loom over the hole, and I don't like them one bit.  They make me feel like they are staring down on me like some kind of sentinel of giants.  (And I agree with whomever said they were probably planted for safety, and they detract versus add anything to the strategy or playability of the course.)
By the way, I have played this course from the middle tees on every one of my rounds. No reason to punish myself.      

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Mike,
 
Its all good, I'm a lover of Google maps, not sure I could live without it. 
 
I would agree #7 is an iron off the tee hole, and its true there is no gunch, or OB...however, if one misses the fairway there is a penalty to paid and that is you have virtually no hope to get anywhere near the green on your next shot due to the thick nature of the trees.  Its almost always going to be a low punchout 2nd shot.  As I recall I used 3 wood in my one playing and I went in the trees on my way to a double bogey....
 
I guess for me, on a course with so many world class holes, and so much strategy, it just seemed out of place to have a "hit it or here else" hole.  And I doubt the Dr. could have done much different to avoid the hole, and I doubt any of us would have wanted him to even consider such, given the high quality of the other holes he found in the surrounding area.  I think its just an unfortunate reality of not being able to have such a dangerous hole that all the trees had to be planted to keep things sane.  Ideally if it was a low round course they could remove the bowling alley, and it would greatly improve the hole... but as is, it just doesn't work for me. So maybe we just chalk it up to that, personal dislike of the current implementation.
 
Pasa is a fantastic course otherwise, and I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'm not sure I've played a more fantastically routed 9 holes than that back 9...just brilliant!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
 
Exactly what is a "demand" carry and how does it differ from a normal carry?
 
Kalen,
 
A demand carry is one where you have no viable alternative.
Some call it a "forced" carry.
 
On # 16, it's a demand/forced carry, whereas on # 7 you can roll the ball onto the green.
 
In addition, the tee shot on # 16 is to an elevated fairway whereas the tee shot on # 7 is level.
 
The tee shot on # 16 is blind whereas the tee shot on # 7 is visible. 
 
The tee shot on # 16 is to a dogleg DZ where the ball can roll either OB right or down into the hazard on the left.
 
The tee shot on # 7 is straight away.
 
And i'm not buying that someone like you is going to have a 5 iron approach on a 380 yard hole.  You can hit a 5 iron off that tee and still only be hitting a 8 iron into that green.  I'm a short knocker and I hit 3 wood/ 7 iron on that hole.

The green on # 16 is about 50 yards deep and the back tiers on that green are elevated, making an approach into that green far more difficult than the approach into # 7.
 
I hit my 5-iron 170 and my 8-iron 140, for a total of 310 yards on a flat hole.
 
I'd like to bet you on 3-wood/7-iron to a back hole location.
 
But, the real proof of the pudding is in the "handicap" for both holes.
 
# 16 is the # 3 handicap hole.
#   7 is the # 12 handicap hole.
 
What does that tell you about the relative difficulty of both holes ?
 

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,
 
Fair enough, demand = forced, I can go with that alternative naming. 
 
As for the in course hole rating, I've gotta guess that almost of all of its high rating is due to the severity of the green, not the severity of the rest of the hole.  Its by far and away the most complicate green I've ever played, and I mean that in a good way.
 
I didn't find the tee shot all that demanding on 16.  The fairway is 40-50 yards wide and the downhill nature of it lets you play conservative off the tee and get extra roll out.  Sure for the player who thinks every non-par 3 means "pull out the driver" they can find trouble, but that's their own fault for not realizing that a conservative shot can be played there and well rewarded.
 
P.S.  Its not going to roll right OB, just like it won't roll left into the hazard.  It will hang up in the rough before it does either...but no doubt it can fly OB or fly left into the hazard....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
 
Fair enough, demand = forced, I can go with that alternative naming. 
 
As for the in course hole rating, I've gotta guess that almost of all of its high rating is due to the severity of the green, not the severity of the rest of the hole.  Its by far and away the most complicate green I've ever played, and I mean that in a good way.
 
Kalen,
 
I've often wondered, given that the course was designed in the 1920's, why so few have tried to duplicate that green.
And not just the putting surface, but the guarding bunkers as well.


I didn't find the tee shot all that demanding on 16. 
 
It is blind, and that quality alone makes it more intimidating.
 
 
The fairway is 40-50 yards wide and the downhill nature of it lets you play conservative off the tee and get extra roll out.  Sure for the player who thinks every non-par 3 means "pull out the driver" they can find trouble, but that's their own fault for not realizing that a conservative shot can be played there and well rewarded.
 
But, the more conservative you are off the tee, the more demanding the approach shot.
 
The hole presents an interesting dilemma.
 
That's a green I want to approach with as short a club as possible, hence, for me, it's a driver hole.

P.S.  Its not going to roll right OB, just like it won't roll left into the hazard.  It will hang up in the rough before it does either...but no doubt it can fly OB or fly left into the hazard....
 
I wish that you had told two of the fellows I was playing with not to hit pull draws off the tee

[Bill_McBride]

Pat,
 
Fair enough, demand = forced, I can go with that alternative naming. 
 
As for the in course hole rating, I've gotta guess that almost of all of its high rating is due to the severity of the green, not the severity of the rest of the hole.  Its by far and away the most complicate green I've ever played, and I mean that in a good way.
 
Kalen,
 
I've often wondered, given that the course was designed in the 1920's, why so few have tried to duplicate that green.
And not just the putting surface, but the guarding bunkers as well.


I didn't find the tee shot all that demanding on 16. 
 
It is blind, and that quality alone makes it more intimidating.
 
 
The fairway is 40-50 yards wide and the downhill nature of it lets you play conservative off the tee and get extra roll out.  Sure for the player who thinks every non-par 3 means "pull out the driver" they can find trouble, but that's their own fault for not realizing that a conservative shot can be played there and well rewarded.
 
But, the more conservative you are off the tee, the more demanding the approach shot.
 
The hole presents an interesting dilemma.
 
That's a green I want to approach with as short a club as possible, hence, for me, it's a driver hole.

P.S.  Its not going to roll right OB, just like it won't roll left into the hazard.  It will hang up in the rough before it does either...but no doubt it can fly OB or fly left into the hazard....
 
I wish that you had told two of the fellows I was playing with not to hit pull draws off the tee

Pull draws go into the barranca?   It all seems so benign on the tee!

[Michael Essig]

Pull draws go into the barranca?   It all seems so benign on the tee!

Yes, just ask my son.   
Isn't part of the problem on the drive is that you must draw the ball to get it running with the fairway?
I hit my longer clubs with a draw, so I don't know how the fairway reacts to a straight ball, but I wouldn't think that the natural contours would throw it far enough left to get it running with the fairway (instead of running across the fairway and into the right rough; leaving a difficult second shot over the right trap.)
Too much draw, and you are in the barranca.  And despite what Kalen said, my memory recalls that there isn't much grass near the barranca; I can't recall how much rough you have to go through to get to it, but I remember a lot of dirt/patchy grass under the trees and close to the barranca. And that barranca is definitely in play. 
If you hit a cut, wouldn't you have to start your tee shot tight up against the trees?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,
 
# 16 isn't the pushover that Kalen would have you believe.
 
Since it's the # 3 ranked handicap hole I think Kalen's memory may be challenged 

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,
 
# 16 isn't the pushover that Kalen would have you believe.
 
Since it's the # 3 ranked handicap hole I think Kalen's memory may be challenged 

Once again Pat,  don't put words, or anything else for that matter...in my mouth. 
 
I only said the tee shot is not nearly as hard or demanding as you two are making it out to be  There is plenty of room out there and the downhill nature of the fairway lets you be conservative on top of that.  The approach is certainly demanding as is getting the ball in the hole once you are on the green.
 
Now...if you matched up #7's green with #16s tee shot it would certainly be in the bottom half of the handicapped holes at Pasa.

[Ross Harmon]

Played Pasa for the first time last week... what a special place!

#16 is truly a special hole, with a semi-blind tee shot to a larger than life green complex. I made the probably fairly standard 3 putt bogey.

My thoughts on the hole came from seeing my wife play it though. She hit a perfect drive (usually hits it about 185 - very typical for ladies) down the middle, cutting off a little of the left corner. But, she still had ~190 yards in! So, she had to lay up in front of the gulch. The scorecard has the ladies yardage at 353, but uphill and with a back pin as we had, it's impossible to hit in two for most ladies. It seems to me like it would be very easy to add a new ladies tee box in front of the tee gulch, to the left of the cart path. This would take some of the uphill-ness off the drive and make the hole roughly 30 yards shorter.  I believe then most ladies would at least have a shot of reaching this difficult green in 2.

There were a few other places on the course where, in our opinion, different ladies tees were needed...
#3 - 175 yards on the scorecard + back pin meant driver for my wife - she stuck it to 10 ft though!
#10 - Seemed like a fairly long and intimidating forced carry for ladies from the tee, especially with the fairway narrowing at ~145 yards, my wife did make it over safely though.
#11 - 311 yards on the scorecard, not likely to hit driver as you run out of room at 175 yards, 2nd shot felt very long for ladies with the 2nd shot forced carry of approximately 140 yards assuming you drove it 160.
#12 - 373 yards on the scorecard, 190 yard drive results in another 140 yard forced carry, or layup.

Paging Alice Dye... 

And because I'm sure nobody gets tired of pictures of the 16th.

[Kalen Braley]

Ross,
 
Terrific Photo!!!  Per-chance.  What did you hit off the tee and what did you have left for the approach?  Doesn't look like too much based on that pic.   

[Ross Harmon]

Ross,
 
Terrific Photo!!!  Per-chance.  What did you hit off the tee and what did you have left for the approach?  Doesn't look like too much based on that pic.   

I hit Driver (draw) and 9 iron (~145 in). Was on the middle tier, right side - pin was back middle. It's a tough 2 putt when you're not on the right tier!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ross,


You're right, great photo.


What tees did you play ?


Karen,


# 16 is blind, # 7 is totally visible.


# 7 challenges the golfer in that it places a high premium on accuracy.


Since # 7 is a relatively short hole, the golfer has to decide which club will produce the best results.

[Ross Harmon]

Ross,


You're right, great photo.


What tees did you play ?

Pat - White tees, 365 vs 387 yards on #16.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ross,

Would it be fair to say that with play from the back tee your approach club would go from a 9-iron to a 7-iron, and to get to the back tier would have required one more club, a 6-iron ?

[Ross Harmon]

Ross,

Would it be fair to say that with play from the back tee your approach club would go from a 9-iron to a 7-iron, and to get to the back tier would have required one more club, a 6-iron ?

Pat - I don't think it would be unfair, probably a 6 or 7 iron. I did hit a nice draw on the tee, which gave me a 1 club advantage as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Picture a back right hole location


Ross, are you sure that's not an 8-iron 


What a great green.


Built in 1926, why hasn't it been more widely replicated ?


Was it the inspiration for # 4 at Spyglass ?

[Bill_McBride]

I don't see an elephant buried in that green, which I've always visualized on the 4th at Spyglass. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't see an elephant buried in that green, which I've always visualized on the 4th at Spyglass.
 
Bill,
 
# 4 at Spyglass is a multi-tiered green where the tiers lower as you go to the back of the green.
 
What elephant or green are you talking about ?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()