[Matthew Sander]

David W.,

OFCC (both North and South) has a much better site than Skokie. Some of the greens perched upon little hillocks almost need to be seen to be believed. Skokie is interesting shaping and thoughtful hazard placement on a much more mundane site.

[Andrew Buck]

Judge Terry (or anyone else with the requisite knowledge),

I have played Chicago GC, Shoreacres, Butler National, and Skokie, and agree with their order on the list. I have not played OFCC, so for my education: why is OFCC North higher than Skokie? Can you take a few moments to compare and contrast them? Is the margin wide or fairly narrow?

I may not be the best for this, but I have a very difficult time trying to compare "tournament" courses like Medinah, Olympia Fields and Butler to the other courses in the top 10. 

As a side, even though there is a pro tournament there, I can't figure out where Conway Farms goes at all. 

[Trey Kemp]

I recently played the newly renovated Kemper Lakes, which I believe was completed by Doug Myslinski, and it certainly has to be put on the list.  It has always been a good test of Championship golf but now with new bunkering and fresh strategy, it really has elevated.  It was recently awarded the 2018 LPGA Championship, which happens to follow the 2017 LPGA Chamiponship at Olympia Fields.  Championship golf back at  Kemper Lakes and it is fantastic!  Here are a few pics:


Hole 2



Hole 4

[John McCarthy]

Andrew:  Conway Farms is a nice members course.  Very quaint clubhouse.  Not as much interest as Plum Tree National. 

It is should be left off the list, especially in light of the 18th and the revetted bunkers out there.

11th is a nice green I suppose.

[Jud_T]

I may not be the best for this, but I have a very difficult time trying to compare "tournament" courses like Medinah, Olympia Fields and Butler to the other courses in the top 10. 

I agree with this completely- Comparing Butler and Medinah to Old Elm and Glen View is a fool's errand.  I'd tailor my recommendations depending on the audience...

[Terry Lavin]

What about Midlothian and Hinsdale?   Worthy for this list?

No.

[Terry Lavin]

I may not be the best for this, but I have a very difficult time trying to compare "tournament" courses like Medinah, Olympia Fields and Butler to the other courses in the top 10. 

I agree with this completely- Comparing Butler and Medinah to Old Elm and Glen View is a fool's errand.  I'd tailor my recommendations depending on the audience...

Sure, but only a fool would discount a course because it is capable of challenging the best.

[Brian Colbert]

Andrew:  Conway Farms is a nice members course.  Very quaint clubhouse.  Not as much interest as Plum Tree National. 

It is should be left off the list, especially in light of the 18th and the revetted bunkers out there.

11th is a nice green I suppose.

Last I heard, Plum Tree National is NLE

[John Connolly]

Bryn Mawr is over treed but otherwise a very fun course. Wonderful green complexes.

[J_ Crisham]

A notable omission is Elgin CC. It is easily top 25 in Chicago- best terrain for golf in Chicago . Better than Conway, Glen Flora, and LaGrange just for starters.

[Jim Hoak]

I'd add my endorsement of Old Elm being third, fairly close behind Chicago Golf and Shoreacres.  What is the argument for it being ranked so low on the list?

[J_ Crisham]

I'd add my endorsement of Old Elm being third, fairly close behind Chicago Golf and Shoreacres.  What is the argument for it being ranked so low on the list?

Very few have seen it and those that have were obviously prior to the restoration . I would submit that it is now better than Shoreacres and certainly the equivalent of CGC .

[Terry Lavin]

I'd add my endorsement of Old Elm being third, fairly close behind Chicago Golf and Shoreacres.  What is the argument for it being ranked so low on the list?

Very few have seen it and those that have were obviously prior to the restoration . I would submit that it is now better than Shoreacres and certainly the equivalent of CGC .

Seems like you were seduced by the short grass eye candy. The new maintenance meld is very fetching and it puts evil thoughts in the head of a mid to high handicapper, but the holes and the routing haven't really changed all that much. Getting rid of rough and dressing up bunkers doesn't convert Old Elm into Chicago Golf or Shoreacres IMHO. Same old gal in nicer clothes. And #9 in town ain't an insult, either.

[Jason Way]

Bryn Mawr is over treed but otherwise a very fun course. Wonderful green complexes.

When was the last time you were out at BMCC, John?  They have taken out quite a few trees in the last two years, a recent micro-burst took out 150 more, and they are removing even more this fall.  By summer of next year, I don't think that even the most fervent tree warrior would call it over treed.

[Jason Way]

...dressing up bunkers...

This is a major understatement of what was done on the bunkers there Judge.  They were restored to their original (from the Colt plans) positioning and style which means that every bunker on the course was touched - some added, some moved, some removed, all reworked significantly.


Also, I would expect more effusive praise from GCAers for the tree management program they are executing, which is BY FAR the boldest in town.

[Terry Lavin]

Jason,

Fair point re the bunkers. Zinkland's work is first rate. As for the tree program, they cut down more than a thousand several years back, leaving only the right trees. Well done indeed. But I repeat, # 9 is no insult.

[John Connolly]

Bryn Mawr is over treed but otherwise a very fun course. Wonderful green complexes.

When was the last time you were out at BMCC, John?  They have taken out quite a few trees in the last two years, a recent micro-burst took out 150 more, and they are removing even more this fall.  By summer of next year, I don't think that even the most fervent tree warrior would call it over treed.

Last time I played it was in the fall of '13 where overhanging branches confounded fairway play. A quick review of current imagery shows that phenomenon continues to exist. But the renovation did wonders - and the microburst I guess. A course you could play every day.

[David_Moorhead]

Interesting that all but 2 are private. The initial Michigan list had quite a few more publics, but that may be the tourism business at work.  I suspect most large cities have this disparity in the quality of public/private courses.  Thoughts?

If the Chicago list went to 40, would more public courses be included?  Would courses like Highlands of Elgin, Ravisloe, Mt. Prospect (looking forward to hearing about it after the outing), or others be included?  If the Chicago list was limited to public courses, would we have any agreement on the top 5?

David

[Andrew Buck]

Interesting that all but 2 are private. The initial Michigan list had quite a few more publics, but that may be the tourism business at work.  I suspect most large cities have this disparity in the quality of public/private courses.  Thoughts?

If the Chicago list went to 40, would more public courses be included?  Would courses like Highlands of Elgin, Ravisloe, Mt. Prospect (looking forward to hearing about it after the outing), or others be included?  If the Chicago list was limited to public courses, would we have any agreement on the top 5?

David

Well there isn't consensus at the top, so I doubt we'd get one as you go further down.  I'd say the following courses all merit consideration (only one I haven't played is Shepherd's Crook).

Bowes Creek
Highlands
Cog #4
Prairie Landings
Thunderhawk
Ravisloe
Glen Club
Cantigny

With other Illinois options of

Deere Run
The General
Kankakee Elks
Metamora Fields
Weaver Ridge

and probably some in St Louis Metro East that I'm not familiar with. 

[Bill Seitz]

Pine Meadow should probably be on that list, as well as both courses at Harborside. 

[Andrew Buck]

Pine Meadow should probably be on that list, as well as both courses at Harborside.

Yeah, forgot Pine Meadows ... excluded Harborside on purpose, but that may be unfair (and it's been a decade since I've played either).

[PCCraig]

I've only played 14 of the 25, but I'd have a hard time putting Glenview Club above Black Sheep or Flossmoor.

I think GVC, in particular post-Urbina, should be ranked higher than both.

[Anthony Fowler]

I'll second Bill and Jack's views on Elgin and Onwentsia. In my view, Elgin should definitely be in the top 25, and Onwentsia should be comfortably in the top 5. I've played 13 of Terry's top 25 and 5 of the top 10, and Onwentsia is my favorite course in Chicago. The greens are spectacular, the routing is brilliant (and apparently very close to the original), and there is a ton of strategy. I also love the quiet and beautiful setting; I can't recall a single place on the course where you see (or hear) a house or road. The only thing that could potentially hold its ranking and reputation back is the exclusivity and the fact that raters don't like to 3 putt.


I also think Flossmoor should be rated higher, but I'm biased there (of course, I joined because I love the course and not the other way around). Flossmoor is probably my #2 course in Chicago after Onwentsia. The disparity between my personal ranking and everyone else's suggests that I put a lot more weight on interesting, challenging greens with subtle contours that affect the strategy of the hole. Onwentsia and Flossmoor have those in spades.

[David Whitmer]

I may not be the best for this, but I have a very difficult time trying to compare "tournament" courses like Medinah, Olympia Fields and Butler to the other courses in the top 10. 

I agree with this completely- Comparing Butler and Medinah to Old Elm and Glen View is a fool's errand.  I'd tailor my recommendations depending on the audience...

Okay, then allow me to re-phrase: why is OFCC ranked higher than Skokie? For those who agree, why is that your conclusion? Is it the routing, the green complexes, the bunkering? If I ever tee it up at OFCC, what am I going to see there that may lead me to the same conclusion? Certainly two courses, whether one is a "tournament" course and one is not, can have their merits differentiated, no? I have played Butler (tournament course) and Skokie (I guess not a tournament course?), and can compare them...I think Butler is slightly better due to approach shots and a better mix of par 4s (though the lack of disparity in the par 3 distances keeps it very close). Matthew gave me a taste...anything else?

[Jud_T]

I may not be the best for this, but I have a very difficult time trying to compare "tournament" courses like Medinah, Olympia Fields and Butler to the other courses in the top 10. 

I agree with this completely- Comparing Butler and Medinah to Old Elm and Glen View is a fool's errand.  I'd tailor my recommendations depending on the audience...

Okay, then allow me to re-phrase: why is OFCC ranked higher than Skokie? For those who agree, why is that your conclusion? Is it the routing, the green complexes, the bunkering? If I ever tee it up at OFCC, what am I going to see there that may lead me to the same conclusion? Certainly two courses, whether one is a "tournament" course and one is not, can have their merits differentiated, no? I have played Butler (tournament course) and Skokie (I guess not a tournament course?), and can compare them...I think Butler is slightly better due to approach shots and a better mix of par 4s (though the lack of disparity in the par 3 distances keeps it very close). Matthew gave me a taste...anything else?

Dave,


This is really down to personal preference.  I personally have a slight preference for Skokie, which has also held numerous tournaments, but they're both very good courses that are just below the very best in the area.  i.e. Doak 7ish...

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