Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road

[ward peyronnin]

I can't Jerry

Will never play there again

[Sean_A]

Kalen, Tom - this is something I genuinely don't understand or like, this playing of different tees. If the responsibility is on *me* to move from one set of tees to another in order to interact with the architecture in interesting, challenging, fun, and most of all *varied* ways, then the architect hasn't done his job. He has so many, and more than enough, tools at his disposal in designing and building a course i.e. various types of par, a wide range of differing lengths, almost endless directional changes, the freedom to decide for each hole the severity and number of hazards, a scale of recovery options around the greens from very easy to very hard, the chance for canted fairways and uphill and downhill lies, and near endless possibilities re: green contours and slopes. If with all that at his disposal he still can't provide me a journey full of variety -- variety of interest and challenge and shot values and possible scores -- without me having to create/support it for him by moving my tees around, then I really think he has missed the mark. 

Besides, the few times I've moved to different tees during a round, I've always felt dishonest, and like I was  cheating (as if I'd decided that my pawn in a chess game could move 7 spaces instead of 1 or 2, whenever I'm stuck or in trouble or losing badly). Call me a 'card and pencil rube' if you like, but to me if a strong wind is in my face on a long par 4, the architect probably *intended* it to be in may face, and for me to deal with the thought of not reaching the green in regulation; why would I want to move up and make it play more like every other Par 4 on the course?  I take it that many around here do that all the time, move up a set of tees (and presumably never to make a golf hole *harder* or more difficult to score one); ironically, many of those posters are the same ones who tell me that "par doesn't matter".  I honestly don't get it.

Peter:


I understand where you're coming from. 


I've built a couple of courses now where they don't put out any tee markers [The Sheep Ranch was the first, it is 100% freewheeling], and my feelings about that depend on how the course is used.  At Ballyneal some guys seem to have fun teeing off from ridiculous spots that have nothing to do with how I thought the hole would be played.  I guess if they're having fun, more power to them.  If you are playing a match there and "winner chooses" the tees, then, you just need to win some holes.


However, I have noticed that on a course where there are carries involved, giving players the option of what tee to play pretty much takes the carries out of play.  When we were building Stonewall, the 6th hole has an optional carry over a creek, so I asked Jay Sigel what distance he could comfortably carry, and then I made the carry twenty yards longer than that ... because I figured he was fibbing just a bit, and because I didn't WANT him to be comfortable on that tee shot.  But if he's just going to move up a tee on that hole, then I can't play on that sort of discomfort.


What I don't worry about is what clubs people are going to hit into greens.  Pete Dye taught me years ago that an architect has no control over that, because average golfers are far too inconsistent off the tee to predict where they'll go.  Plus my experience in the UK was that with the wind, you could be approaching almost any green with a 3-wood in some circumstances.  So, I've always tried to give the people with the 3-wood some way to play their shot, and by doing so, I don't have to worry what they are hitting.


Now, Tobacco Road does not fit that last paragraph at all.  There are a bunch of holes where if you aren't hitting a short iron, or can't hit one with a bit of spin, you just aren't going to hold the green, period.  And that works back through the rest of the course, so now suddenly playing the "right" tee matters, even though it's impossible for the architect to make that work well for someone like George P., or the two kids I played with -- the only way it will work is if the players take it upon themselves to play from a tee that works for them.  And, as I've said, I do think that's asking a lot of them.

I am perplexed as to why its asking a lot of players to choose a tee which best works.  My usual definition of "best works" is closest tee to the previous green unless the course is routed for the back markers...in which case I will likely lose interest anyhow.  If living in the UK has taught me anything it is that I have no right to know how a hole will play or what is best for me after 1 or 10 go rounds.  Its guess work for a while and that is no different for archies.  Why would I want it any other way? 


Though I do agree there are long, sideways, narrow greens which require precision distance approaching...probably too many of these holes in truth. 


Pietro


Its very odd to hear a chap like you is bound by one set of tee markers.  Live a little 

[/size][size=78%]Ciao [/size]

[Michael Whitaker]

After rereading and considering this thread I have a few comments to make in defense of Tobacco Road.

To Mike Cirba - you mentioned that you have played TB once in 2010. And, based on that one play you state the following:

1) There are bowls that "collect every ball into a mucky pocket."
2) These bowls "stay soggy all the time."
3) Bunkers are "seemingly permanently filled with rivulets."

How you can use the descriptors "every," "all the time," and "permanently" after one visit is beyond me. These comments are all related to the course being extremely wet or having just experienced a major rain event. When maintained properly I don't think TB exhibits any more of these tendencies than other boldly contoured courses in the south. It's a tough place to for courses that are not flattish or don't tilt into a body of water. I've played TB when it was wet and when it was bone dry. I prefer dry. But, I don't berate the course because it didn't meet my expectations when it was wet... I just accept my poor luck and do the best I can under the conditions.

4) Waste areas are often "preferred landing zones for better players."

Well, since I am not a "better" player I can't make a reply to this statement except to say... "so what!" If a player thinks he has an advantage taking a route that the architect (or the average player) didn't consider then more power to him. What's the problem with that?

5) Course is a "nightmare" for weaker players.

I have played TB with scores of "weaker players" and I can assure you it is anything but a "nightmare" for them. With proper guidance TB is one of the most pure fun courses a "weaker" player can play. Proper guidance or course knowledge is the key.

6) Can't imagine enjoying repeated plays.

If there was ever a course that should offer caddies (or forecaddies) for first time players it is TB. I'll admit that it is difficult to figure out what to do on first play, but on the second and beyond it is a thrill. Of all the courses I have played TB offers the biggest jump in enjoyment from first play to second play. When people have severe comments after having only played TB one time I discount their criticisms by about 75%. After you have played two or three times I will listen to what you have to say.


To Tom Doak - you also mentioned that you have only played TB once... in the company of two accomplished junior players. Granted, I would give your one-play opinion of a course more credence than just about any other person I know, but you made the following comments:

1) "You have to have a guidebook to have any idea where to go sometimes."

I would agree with this statement on one's first play. There is a LOT of visual deception and intimidation on TB. However, for players with an open mind and imagination this can be a lot fun. That is why I think players who receive proper guidance on their first play seem to enjoy TB the most.

2) Shapes of some of the fairways are "so misleading that you don't know what to do, so you go to the guidebook instead of trying to sort it out for yourself."

I have played a LOT of highly regarded courses that had me standing on tee boxes or in the middle of fairways without a clue where to play or what to do. Without a caddy or a guidebook I would have been completely lost. A few that come to mind are The Ocean Course at Kiawah, Lahinch, Prestwick, Elie and National Golf Links. Are they poorer for it?

3) You played with two juniors who could hit it through "a five yard wide area from 160-200 yards out."
4) From certain tees the course was not playable for the two juniors.

I am completely baffled why two juniors who are probably within the top 2% of all juniors nationwide are the standard you used to grade the shortfalls of the course. I've thought about these juniors and can't figure out why they were having so much trouble. Was it because they were trying to hit driver from every par 4 and 5 hole? If they were to talented could they not just adjust the club in their hand to fit the shot presented? TB is not a conventional course. Granted. It doesn't make sense to grade it against conventional standards. You should be more understanding than most architects about that with your love of half-par holes. How many times have you said, "where is it written that a par four has to be two shots and two putts." How many "retail golfers" agree with you?

[MCirba]

Michael Whitaker,

My comments about the low swales collecting water and draining poorly was based on a single play but the conclusive nature of those comments were based on the sheer number of divots (replaced and otherwise) and the size and depths of the divots in those areas.  The fact that the course was wet when I played I would think would mitigate the tendency of balls to find those low spots, but not so much.

I will say this.   Based on the discussion here I'll certainly make the effort to go back and give it another go.   I'm all for pushing the envelope on design and certainly give TR high marks for boldness.   Even though my friend Kyle Harris loves TR, I'm willing to give it an open minded reassessment, but I will say that I went into it with very high expectations based on my experiences with a number of other Strantz courses that I found remarkable, artistically creative, and great fun.

Thanks for your comments.

[Kalen Braley]

Peter P.
 
Ballyneal is certainly worth the visit, and if you do play the tips be prepared to play a lot of long approaches, unless you've got Matt Wardian distance off the tee. 
 
P.S. I'm not sure if the Dixie cup has been to TR yet, but based on this thread, maybe it needs to return, for a 2 day, 72 hole event....that way everyone can try different shots from different tees!!

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks for your patience, Kalen - I know that you've played these courses and I haven't, so my views aren't worth much. And, as others have told me, I might want to to try to break the shackles on my self-imposed "one tee only" rule and open my heart to an over the top and hand-of-man heavy design. But....I just can't seem too 
Peter

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks for your patience, Kalen - I know that you've played these courses and I haven't, so my views aren't worth much. And, as others have told me, I might want to to try to break the shackles on my self-imposed "one tee only" rule and open my heart to an over the top and hand-of-man heavy design. But....I just can't seem too 
Peter

Peter,
 
I still believe in you buddy!! 
 
  Perhaps the next time you want to try something different, a bit of pre-game lubrication might help.  I have a golf buddy in Spokane who is a really serious golfer that always got wrapped up tight in always wanting to play well.  One time we got a few drinks in him before we teed off....we all had way more fun than usual, including him, and he still played well!!  Go figure!! 

[Tom ORourke]

I played 36 holes there once. I was a 6 at that time and shot about 82 or 83 on each round. White tees. I liked it a lot. One of my playing partners hated it. Really hated it. And I think that is part of the charm of the course. Not everyone likes vanilla ice cream. You need a range finder to play to the proper areas and I loved that. Hitting a hybrid lay up that would hang in the air and if it was short you were dead, if it was long you were dead, those few seconds were great fun. I was even in the bunker short of 11 and was glad I had the chance to try that shot. I got it on the back fringe and was thrilled. I would not want to play it everyday as it would drive me nuts, but for a day of hitting really cool golf shots I think it is great. The ninth green was not my favorite as I hit the green twice, but on the front with a back pin. I could not get within 15 feet of the hole, but most of the greens were somewhat playable. I was on the RTJ Trail last week at Capital Hill and Grand National. I thought those greens, as a group, were more difficult that TR. I know TR has a few greens that are over the top, but I just played about 90 greens that drove me crazy. And I can putt. So many of them looked like potato chips and we felt that most pins were placed in areas that were ridiculous. We would be on a four level green and the pin would be in the back on a downslope so even chip shots would either hang up on the third level or go off the green. I did not feel that way at TR but for a few chips and putts, so I think it is a great match play course. If you take it as an exam on how well you can control your ball, hit creative shots, block out the visual intimidation, and take each shot as a challenge it is a great course. If you are playing badly it probably will be on the bottom of your most wanted list. I will say that since I played TR about 10 years ago I feel like I have played a few more courses with "do or die" shots to multi level greens. I wonder if there is a cause and effect relationship to TR. And, for the record, I liked True Blue a lot as well, so I am all in on his work.

[Jerry Kluger]

The last time I played the course was a 1:00 tee time and the course was really backed up so I got to watch a bunch of players.  On the first hole I watched 12 guys tee off and maybe 3 hit the fairway.  The rest hit multiple balls, many of them in the high grass on the hills which they insisted on looking for.  My friend and I played 2 good shots and we thought we hit 3 good shots but our best guess was that with respect to our shots into the green, my friend's was long and lost, while mine was right and bounced further right and was lost.  On the second hole the guys in front of us were all over the place and had no idea where they were going with their tee shots and their second shots.  (I later spoke to them on the 16th tee and they were from the UK.) 


I have played TR 5 times and have seen all levels of players try to play number 9 and not one hit the green in regulation.  It might be acceptable if they could make it into a par 5 but as a 4 it is totally impossible.  And by the way, try the steps down from the green when it is wet.


Let's go to 15 where players have no idea where the green is without a yardage book. 


There were 3 groups on 16 and a ranger came and stood at the corner of the dogleg so he could try and tell them where their balls landed and then give them an idea of where the flag was. He told me it was always a bottleneck and he was doing his best to try and help the situation.


We get to 18 and again players are wondering where they are to go with their tee shots and where is the flagstick.


I have played plenty of other courses that have cool features and are quirky but this goes well beyond that.  Sure, there are some really good holes but some just make you so frustrated that fun is gone.


Would you really consider playing TR in a stroke play competition -would you really want to play behind groups were they had to go back every time they lost a ball or had an unplayable lie where they had no choice but go back to replay the shot?  If your answer is no then I challenge the value of the course - if your answer is yes then you must enjoy 6 hour golf rounds.

[Andrew Buck]

Jerry,

I think that is part of it.  Our rounds at Dormie, Mid Pines, Pine Needles and #2 were all under 4 hours.  The afternoon at Tobacco Road was 5:30 at least on way too hot of an afternoon. 

It really is hard to imagine that course playing in under 4:00 hours with any traffic, as it only takes one group to slow it to unbearable.  We had a forecaddie, but they almost should be mandatory.

[Steve Lang]

The last time I played the course was a 1:00 tee time and the course was really backed up so I got to watch a bunch of players......


Would you really consider playing TR in a stroke play competition -would you really want to play behind groups were they had to go back every time they lost a ball or had an unplayable lie where they had no choice but go back to replay the shot?  If your answer is no then I challenge the value of the course - if your answer is yes then you must enjoy 6 hour golf rounds.

JK,.  So a long and hot play seems to be haunting you about TR...  and extends to its gca ...not allowing 3-4 hour rounds to be played discounts its value and statement. lord help us then on so many, many courses less entertaining than TR; where folks are being forced to play after work 9-hole leagues in 3 hours and medal tournaments or play under strict USGA rules on their 4-5 hr free saturdays??   

[Mark_Fine]

Out of the box thinking by Strantz!!  Maybe he went a bit overboard at times, but he took chances and tried to do something different (at least different here in the U.S.). 

[Jerry Kluger]

Steve: So if the architecture of a course makes the norm for a round of golf to be 5 hours you are ok with it?

[Frank M]

 I just love Tobacco Road and everything it represents.

[Adam Lawrence]

Would you really consider playing TR in a stroke play competition -would you really want to play behind groups were they had to go back every time they lost a ball or had an unplayable lie where they had no choice but go back to replay the shot?  If your answer is no then I challenge the value of the course - if your answer is yes then you must enjoy 6 hour golf rounds.

But Jerry, we don't typically play medal competitions on courses we've never seen before, but on courses where we are members, that we know, or where we have had a practice round. If, by some unfortunate series of consequences, you ended up trying to play a tournament on your first time out on a new course, especially one with a reputation for blindness, you'd figure out how to get a local caddie, wouldn't you?


I've only played TR once, and I loved it. Maybe coming from the UK I'm more attuned to blind holes, but really I can't see anything out there the odd marker post wouldn't fix. I wasn't too keen on the ninth green, made a still unbeliveable up and down from the bunker short of 11 and came within an inch of holing my second on 18. I must go back.

[Sean_A]

I didn't think the 9th was anything outrageous, although I would hack down the rough left of the green as some sort of miss should or even a kick should be available.


Like Adam stated, compared to many UK courses TR is not ott (play Perranporth!), but it could have done with more generous greens as too many are narrow...either across or down play.  Changing the shape and size of a few greens would make all the difference in the world and a better, more varied course.  But hey, we can't have everything. 


I also agree with Frank.  TR is not conducive to a fast round by any means, but only people can be blamed for 5 hour rounds as this is inexcusable. 


Finally...Doak gave TR a 7?  And people have an issue with his comments? 


Ciao

[Jason Thurman]

One of the things Darius Oliver mentions in the Gourmet Choice profile is Tobacco Road's accessibility. More than just a public course, Tobacco Road is a very affordable public course in a region full of tourists and also full of higher price points. So yes, rounds tend to take a long time there, just as they do on the affordable municipal courses near my home, or at places like Pebble Beach or Bethpage Black that are frequently packed with tourists. I have no doubt it would be a regular 3 1/2 hour round if it were a member-played private course. It's short, plenty wide, and not nearly as difficult for a player who has seen it a few times as it is for a first-timer.

[A.G._Crockett]

Steve: So if the architecture of a course makes the norm for a round of golf to be 5 hours you are ok with it?

The GCA of Tobacco Road doesn't make the norm for a round of golf  to be 5 hours.  Golfers do that, and they can (and do) manage it on ANY course.  You know that, of course.

TR is more susceptible to the 5 hr round than most courses, for sure.  First and foremost, I think it is because the majority of players on any given day have either never played there before or at least haven't been there very much.  That combined with the much-discussed "visual intimidation" can cause delays.  Additionally, there is an factor in play that is comparable to #17 at Sawgrass; players hit repeat shots at TR with incredible frequency.  I don't mean "mulligans"; I'm talking about either hitting a second ball or, even more commonly, hitting putts from weird positions on some of the greens just to see what will happen. 

But if the average round at TR when the course is crowded pushes 5 hours, then so be it.  I suspect that is the norm at many, many such courses.  What is the average at the Ocean Course or Harbour Town or Pebble or Sawgrass, for instance?  I'm not equating TR with those  for "quality", but I am for some of the uniqueness and visuals.

I'll also take issue with those who rant about blind shots.  Yes, there are a lot of shots at TR that are blind in the sense of not being able to see the ball land and roll.  But I can't think of a single shot on the golf course where Strantz didn't show a line OR desired line of play isn't marked somehow.  That the penalties for not being able to execute the shot are high speaks to the slope rating, but that is NOT the same thing as not knowing where to hit the ball in the first place.

I'll say it again; if you can't have fun at The Road, then your idea of what golf is and should be is way out of whack.  Don't take yourself and your score so seriously, and drop the cookie-cutter ideas of art and GCA.

[Kalen Braley]

Frank M and AG....very excellent posts indeed!
 
Morpheus said it best!! 
 

[David Davis]

My two cents worth having just played it last Saturday on my annual US pilgrimage.


Really enjoyed the course, played it in the second hardest rain I've ever seen on a golf course. If you told me that 8-10 inches fell during my round I would not be at all surprised as the course marshal came out to me on the 15th hole to ask about ponding which there was plenty of. Also plenty of wind. This all made me feel quite at home there. Visually there is a lot going on at TR most of which seemed to me to not interfere with the golf experience but add to it. I agree with the guys that blind shots are the norm in the UK, Ireland and The Netherlands so I enjoyed finding them on a US course. I guess it's quirky given the nature of these type of holes, especially in the greater Pinehurst area (at least based on the courses I had the opportunity to see).


I did have the opportunity at the start of the day to experience how perhaps the average golfers would fair. I was in the second grouping and we waited 20 minutes on the first tee while they all searched in the long grass for their balls not having cleared it through the gap. I agree it's a course a caddy would do wonders at. Two mentionable points there. Nobody in that first group should of been trying to play from the back tees, no caddy and if they were playing from the back tees should of laid up and played the hole as a 3 shot hole. Perhaps wise decisions are for mid to low hcp'ers. In my group there was a father from LA and his sons, one a 3 hcp the other an 8 and dad a 10. All three lost there drive as well but all 3 tried to hit through the gap. Again hard rain and wind in our faces. I got lucky with a decent drive but still had to lay up before the second shot.


After the first hole took 30 minutes in the hard rain I excused myself and played through the first group on the second hole as I had another round to get to at Pinehurst #2 in the afternoon. I was off and running and had taken a cart given the conditions and not having brought an umbrella with me to sun country.


I though most things on the course were pretty self explanatory, even with no caddy, I did have a yardage book. However, I did have a couple confusing moments so understand how this could affect others as well. I think I would push that off onto conditions. I think it was the second par 5 on the front 9 I ran into some trouble, I'd been playing the back tees, came around the corner and saw a tee box on the right, quickly checked the yardage book stepped up and hit my drive which I thought was really good. Then I drove up there to find I had hit through the fairway into the trees but only had 100 yds to the pin which was up on the side of a hill with deep bunkering on the right side and heavy rough on the other. I couldn't figure out how I hit the drive so far so drove back to find I had played from the women's tee which had a similar marker to the back tee. My bad. The approach to that green from the fairway is really very tough in my opinion. Perhaps one of the toughest. That ok but the rough I don't think should of been there. Bringing about another point, I think the deep rough so close to a good shot makes even a short approach with a wedge too exacting in those circumstances. I struggled with it but can't imagine how it would of been for that first group out. I imagine they didn't finish the hole. Great if you play it matchplay but the average golfer probably doesn't do that. Where as many on GCA would I'm guessing. The average guy finds it unfair, where as we might not mind a couple holes like that.


I'd go out on a limb here and say TR is the Castle Course of the Pinehurst area. Almost to a tee. It doesn't in my mind matter if you like or dislike the Castle Course or see it as a missed opportunity it's there and adds highly to the experience in the area being something completely different, a bit risky in terms of architecture and "must see" if in the area for a while to play several rounds.


Even in the hardest rain I still enjoyed it especially the final stretch of holes which all would be among my favorites there. Which I guess is 13 - 18. 13 reminded me of several links holes I've seen before with the almost hidden approach to the large punch bowl. I think I'd rather see that entire section shaved down so you could play the ball of any side as long as you could get it into the bowl. Now there is high rough, but that's only a maintenance preference.


The elevated par 3 over water I thought was a great change of pace I didn't expect and a tough shot into the wind. 16 I would only again have them cut down the rough slightly as I imagine that making the hole a struggle for many players. The blind drive on 18 was also interesting.


Someone commented on the par 3's. While I liked them all as individual holes and there are different visually. Most played almost the same in terms of length, or very close. Also if memory serves me all were from an elevated tee to a lower green. I'd ideally like more variation than that as well. But again they were 4 fun holes to play.

[Peter Pallotta]

Kalen - okay, my last word on this, I promise.

Sure, maybe I should broaden my golfing horizons a bit, but maybe you and AG and Morpheus might want to stop giving orders.  The "Free Your Mind" slogan has always struck me as a little fascistic, if you know what I mean  -- a new kind of rule by a new kind of rule-giver masquerading as a truth-telling liberator (in stylish shades and a leather jacket). After all, I may dislike the look and feel of TR, but I'm not telling anyone that they shouldn't play it, or suggesting that they shouldn't like it (heck, no less an authority than Tom D gave it a "7", and thus called it an excellent course, so who am I to argue!). And if I'm strongly drawn (through photos) to want to play Mid Pines and Dormie instead of their diametric opposite in TR, it might in fact be because I "lack imagination" and that my "idea of what golf is and should be is out of whack" and that I "take my score and myself too seriously"  and even that I need to "drop my cookie-cutter ideas of art and GCA". Yes, it might be all true; but I comfort myself in knowing that these many limitations of mine (which I try to suffer patiently, and mostly in silence) aren't hurting anyone else, and that I don't in turn think that those who do love TR are out of whack.  I think you all should play all the roller-coaster contrived awkwardly routed visually overkilling masterpieces you want. And I mean that sincerely! (By the way, thanks for believing in me  ) 

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Pete.
 
I can assure you the "free your mind" bit is purely a suggestion, not an imperative, so not to worry...   
 
With that being said, I'll leave you with this additional Matrix quote....     
 
 

[BCowan]

Kalen,

Nice post. I haven't played the course just drove in and looked at a few holes. The clubhouse and parking lot is prob the coolest thing I've seen.  The sense of place is so cool.  The few holes I saw looked as though mike was on acid when he designed it.  Way far out.  Learning over the years that it's walkable makes me really want to play it.  It looks as though its not for the 30 handicaper, but other tracks get a nod so why not TR? 

[MCirba]

Sure, maybe I should broaden my golfing horizons a bit, but maybe you and AG and Morpheus might want to stop giving orders.  The "Free Your Mind" slogan has always struck me as a little fascistic, if you know what I mean  -- a new kind of rule by a new kind of rule-giver masquerading as a truth-telling liberator (in stylish shades and a leather jacket).

Peter,

Speaking of fascistic rule givers masquerading as a truth-telling liberator, let's let Cuato have the last word here to all of us.     

[Kalen Braley]

Ben you bring up a good point.
 
A course like Pebble, which is as revered as almost any on the planet, is also a 5+ hour walk and will beat up just about every high capper with its small sloping greens, hazards, and difficult bunkers.  And the price of admission is ungodly to boot.
 
Perhaps TR is not so bad....