Someone please explain the love for Tobacco Road

[Andrew Buck]

It's a very cool course, but I'll tell you when it's not fun

the back-end of a 36 hole day in 100 degree heat after that half hour drive up in AC. 

However, making the decision to switch to a two man scramble match play was easily the best decision of the day ... and I'm pretty sure my dad and I shot 7 under on the back in our scramble after a front nine that included more X's than pars playing our own balls.

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike: I agree that it is visually unbelievable but it plays in a way that is simply not that much fun. 


Ryan: It has nothing to do with exclusivity.  Just go back and think about playing the course for the first time - I would suggest that a bag of used balls that cost no more than a quarter each be the ammo of the day.  Even after playing it a few times you cannot play it without driving up to a bunch of greens to figure out where to hit the ball. 

[Andrew Buck]

Mike: I agree that it is visually unbelievable but it plays in a way that is simply not that much fun. 


Ryan: It has nothing to do with exclusivity.  Just go back and think about playing the course for the first time - I would suggest that a bag of used balls that cost no more than a quarter each be the ammo of the day.  Even after playing it a few times you cannot play it without driving up to a bunch of greens to figure out where to hit the ball.

It really is the type of golf course you'd see on Golden Tee.  A very cool place, but the concept of trying to play a medal event there in any way seems crazy, even though many of the holes are quite forgiving.

[Mac Plumart]

Funny thing about Tobacco Road is that when I played it, despite having my career round (at the time) there, I hated it. It was just too much for me. Too much of everything. Blindness. Boldness. Bunkers. Quirk.

But I keep thinking about it (maybe 4 years since I played it). And I want to play it again.

I find that weird and interesting.

[Kalen Braley]

As a lover of quirk, combined with what I've seen in pictures...
 
This one is very high on my list of courses to play whenever/if I'm in the general vicinity.  It looks spectacular!!

[Chris DeNigris]

Mike: I agree that it is visually unbelievable but it plays in a way that is simply not that much fun. 


Ryan: It has nothing to do with exclusivity.  Just go back and think about playing the course for the first time - I would suggest that a bag of used balls that cost no more than a quarter each be the ammo of the day.  Even after playing it a few times you cannot play it without driving up to a bunch of greens to figure out where to hit the ball.

So?  Would you rather it be like 10,000 other courses where there's little to no mystery and intrigue?  After one or two plays you know what's what.  Not dissimilar to many of the wonderful cool and quirky links in GB&I.

Do you like Ballyhack?  I'd bet not.

As has been mentioned already if you like BH, Kingsley and Dismal White- odds are you'll like TR.

I'm trying to figure out where all the difficult forced carries are that many mention? Maybe 18 makes such a strong impression along those lines- but there are really very few other ones.

[MCirba]

My problem isn't the mystery and unpredictability...I love the stuff.  My problem is that those things are promised yet the over shaped landscape seems to direct balls into very specific, very limited areas where balls settle to the bottom of collection points in fairways and green surrounds that also tend to retain water.

I have similar issues with Whistling Straits but the problem is amplified at Tobacco Road.

[Carl Rogers]

My copy of the second volume of the Confidential Guide arrived today and the authors think, with a few caveats, really worth the effort to play.  I live 4 hours away and it will be close to the top of my regular out of town plays. 


Darius thinks the 9th hole is very good.  For me, the green is too elevated for the length of approach shot with no bail out ... play it safe option.  I wonder why no mention of the opening tee shot, a very intimidating start.

[Jerry Kluger]

Chris: I played Ballyhack a few times and felt it was tough but enjoyable.  I played DR White when it opened and went back a few years later and played it again and enjoyed it more the second time after some holes were softened.  I do not see any resemblance of those courses and TR.  I have played at least 5 other Strantz courses and I like them more than TR.  Again, visually TR is exceptional but there are some holes that I have problems with their playability. 

[Carl Rogers]

....  Again, visually TR is exceptional but there are some holes that I have problems with their playability.

The first time I played TR, for me, I shot a very good round (75).  The opening tee shot and the approach shot to hole 9 are the only problem shots for me.  Otherwise, very playable.

[George Pazin]

I'd guess it's like many other visually difficult courses - the more you play it, the more you learn it's more bark than bite. If you played it every day, your game would also adapt. I will say, their tee recommendations are kind of funny. A HHer like me is recommended to play the front-most or 2nd set of tees, but when I did that the first 4 holes, I was teeing off with 8 irons, lest I hit it through the fairway. It's kind of Pete Dye-like in that regard (most would consider that a compliment). I moved back throughout the day and the last two sets of tees fit my game best, oddly enough. I didn't particularly care for the shots many love, such as the drop shot 17th, and I really don't like wide but shallow greens, but again, I suppose that's something I could adapt to with a little effort.


I enjoyed it, but it certainly isn't a course that conforms to my ideals. Given the choice, I'd rather play a course like Mountain Ridge every day - a wonderful walk, challenging course, few lost balls, etc.


But then again, I'd like to just play anywhere every day, that would be a good problem to have...

[cary lichtenstein]

I loved it, but I had my A game that day and could do no wrong. I shot 70 and negoiated everything well but I didn't like Tots Hill which I played the day before

[Tom_Doak]

I'd guess it's like many other visually difficult courses - the more you play it, the more you learn it's more bark than bite. If you played it every day, your game would also adapt. I will say, their tee recommendations are kind of funny. A HHer like me is recommended to play the front-most or 2nd set of tees, but when I did that the first 4 holes, I was teeing off with 8 irons, lest I hit it through the fairway.

The one time I played the course, I was paired with two top juniors who were prepping for a big event at Pinehurst.  Both of them could hit it through a five-yard wide area from 160 or 200 yards out, but their dad had to constantly adjust what tee they played on each hole so they could make the carries and not run out of room.  The course is a little bit weird in that respect, it's like you have to have a guidebook to have any idea where to go sometimes ... which dilutes the level of interest, in my opinion.


On the other hand, the saving grace of the course to me is that it's short, so you don't always have to be straining to hit the targets with drivers and hybrid second shots.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jerry,

What makes you think it was designed to be enjoyed on a regular vs. once and wow basis? 

For the record, I was wowed twice.   The second time, I took the clients from the Quarry (pre design) to give them an idea of what we proposed would look like, more or less.  I did say it would be a bit less wild and a bit more predictable, and they readily agreed.  Given the Quarry's rating (I think 19 on the USA public course lists by at least GD) I think we made the right philosophical call, in that I think TR is a bit over the top to enjoy as a resort.

TD,

I thought I have seen you write that you don't favor standardized DL points.  above, it sounds like you don't care for at least wildly varying turning points as requiring too much guess work?  Is your position somewhere in between?  And, when designing, what differing DL points to you tend to use?

Thanks.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jeff: There are certainly some really good holes including some that are at the edge of over the top but there are some that are just too extreme to be acceptable even if you look at them as visually exciting.

[Peter Pallotta]

This thread helped me understand: the importance that many architects, clients and owners/members place of their course's presentation; the focus of these same stakeholders on ratings and rankings and magazine profiles; and the engagement on sites like this one by course advocates responding to public comments and/or defending against public critiques. If I just went by the photos and write-ups of TR (here and elsewhere), I would not consider playing the course even once; for my tastes, a disjointed walk through the amusement park visuals and hand-of-man ethos that seems to wholly lack any  'sense of place' holds absolutely no interest whatsoever, no matter how good 'the golf' itself might be. But since noteworthy posters like Sean A (whose golfing tastes I seem, generally, to share) and Philip H suggest that I shouldn't miss it if I'm ever in North Carolina, I do have it on my radar....reluctantly. Of course, to each his own.

[Sean_A]

Pietro


TR is disjointed, but nearly rises completely above it....nearly.  Though I would say for certain the course demonstrates a sense of place very well. 


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

TD,

I thought I have seen you write that you don't favor standardized DL points.  above, it sounds like you don't care for at least wildly varying turning points as requiring too much guess work?  Is your position somewhere in between?  And, when designing, what differing DL points to you tend to use?

Jeff:


I know it sounds weird, but I would prefer not to have "dogleg points" at all in my designs.  Everyone hits the ball a different length and I just think it's silly to design everything around one distance [even if it's only from the back tee].  Additionally, I think most architects use a distance now that is 20-50 yards past where most customers actually drive the ball, thus giving them a very false sense of the second shot demands they are making upon golfers.  Mr. Nicklaus used to look at all the second shots right from the post at the supposed turning point ... I look at the second shot from all the places I might actually drive to, and most of them are not near the post!


I tend to build holes that are more straightaway so that you don't have to play to a certain distance from the tee or fear getting blocked out on the next shot. 


What bothered me about Tobacco Road was that some of the carries forced shorter hitters into terrible options ... #2 is a great example of that ... and other times the shapes of the fairways are so misleading visually that you just don't know what to do, so you go to the guidebook instead of trying to sort it out for yourself.

[Peter Pallotta]

Pietro

TR is disjointed, but nearly rises completely above it....nearly.  Though I would say for certain the course demonstrates a sense of place very well. 

Ciao

Sean - I'll take your word for it. I mean that. And yet, when I think of travelling to North Carolina to play Mid Pines, Dormie, Southern Pines, and Pine Needles, TR doesn't fit into that same picture.  Perhaps such things as sense of place and flowing walks and gentle (not jarring) visuals are more important to me than they should be, and I should be thinking more of shot values and of broadening my golfing horizons.  But as you yourself might say: "If I'm paying my money, I guess I have to choose what I like".

[Bill_McBride]

Pietro

TR is disjointed, but nearly rises completely above it....nearly.  Though I would say for certain the course demonstrates a sense of place very well. 

Ciao

Sean - I'll take your word for it. I mean that. And yet, when I think of travelling to North Carolina to play Mid Pines, Dormie, Southern Pines, and Pine Needles, TR doesn't fit into that same picture.  Perhaps such things as sense of place and flowing walks and gentle (not jarring) visuals are more important to me than they should be, and I should be thinking more of shot values and of broadening my golfing horizons.  But as you yourself might say: "If I'm paying my money, I guess I have to choose what I like".

When you are on that lovely Pinehurst trip and add on Tobacco Road, you are reminded of the intro to Montie Python:  "Now for something completely different!"   And so it is. 

[Jim Sherma]

I found Tobacco Road to be one of the most memorable and wonderful courses I've played. I also had a very good ball striking day and never really got out of position. Having played it with both short and straight and short and crooked players I can not imagine how they could possibly enjoy it. Great course and easily on the short list of modern courses that I regard very highly. I easily put it on the same level as Dormie, Ballyhack and French Creek as other moderns I believe will morph into classics assuming they are allowed to age well.

[Chris DeNigris]

I'd guess it's like many other visually difficult courses - the more you play it, the more you learn it's more bark than bite. If you played it every day, your game would also adapt. I will say, their tee recommendations are kind of funny. A HHer like me is recommended to play the front-most or 2nd set of tees, but when I did that the first 4 holes, I was teeing off with 8 irons, lest I hit it through the fairway.

The one time I played the course, I was paired with two top juniors who were prepping for a big event at Pinehurst.  Both of them could hit it through a five-yard wide area from 160 or 200 yards out, but their dad had to constantly adjust what tee they played on each hole so they could make the carries and not run out of room.  The course is a little bit weird in that respect, it's like you have to have a guidebook to have any idea where to go sometimes ... which dilutes the level of interest, in my opinion.


On the other hand, the saving grace of the course to me is that it's short, so you don't always have to be straining to hit the targets with drivers and hybrid second shots.

I don't live in the world of having to dial back your driver to keep it under 300- so for someone who hits it 250 ish on a good driving day- on what holes are these perplexing distance problems from the tee?
If that's a perception I think it may be riding in the same cart as the too many crazy forced carries meme. Sure you may have to pick the right line to hit a bigger driver on every hole- 5 and 16 are the obvious exceptions, long hitters can always try the short route on 5- but to imply it's somehow tricked up (my phrase) because of this is wrong I think.

[Sean_A]

Pietro

TR is disjointed, but nearly rises completely above it....nearly.  Though I would say for certain the course demonstrates a sense of place very well. 

Ciao

Sean - I'll take your word for it. I mean that. And yet, when I think of travelling to North Carolina to play Mid Pines, Dormie, Southern Pines, and Pine Needles, TR doesn't fit into that same picture.  Perhaps such things as sense of place and flowing walks and gentle (not jarring) visuals are more important to me than they should be, and I should be thinking more of shot values and of broadening my golfing horizons.  But as you yourself might say: "If I'm paying my money, I guess I have to choose what I like".

Pietro


Maybe its just a difference between Ross' and Strantz's interpretations of a sense of place...both work. But for sure, if its your cash, go where your heart takes you. 


Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

I wouldn't want to play it any more than 36 a day twice or 3 times a week.  Hands down highest fun quotient course I've ever played.  Modern day quirk at it's best. Mike was a genius. Obviously not everyone's cup of tea- but if you love it usually you really love it.

Plus One

[Richard Hetzel]

I wouldn't want to play it any more than 36 a day twice or 3 times a week.  Hands down highest fun quotient course I've ever played.  Modern day quirk at it's best. Mike was a genius. Obviously not everyone's cup of tea- but if you love it usually you really love it.

Plus One

Plus Two