[Rich Goodale]

For the newbies and the oldies with deteriorating memories....

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=32398.0

[Niall C]

John, I think it's a fair question because there lies a course consistently ranked in the top 5 in the world, surrounded by courses nowhere near the top 100.

John


Re your basic premis that the Old Course is vastly superior to the other courses I think you will find plenty of locals who will tell you it's not even the best course there let alone vastly superior. Mind you those locals have the advantage of being local and therefore don't get overawed by the romance and history of the place every time they play.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall


Local or not, to suggest The New (or is it the Joob?) is in the same league as TOC is far fetched. 


Steve


Are you suggesting that the undulations of TOC should be replicated on the other courses?  The undulations are what basically separate the courses...nearly all the cool stuff at TOC is off the back of undulations. 


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

As I've mentioned before, I'd like to see a St Andrews 18-hole composite course using the 1st, 17th and 18th from the Old (and maybe the 11th and 16th as well) with the remaining holes coming from the New, Eden and Jubilee.


atb

[Niall C]

Niall


Local or not, to suggest The New (or is it the Joob?) is in the same league as TOC is far fetched. 

Not really. Locals just aren't affected by the romance and history the same way visitors are and see it for what it is which is a very good golf course. That some of them, not all of them obviously, think the New or Jubilee or perhaps both are better than the Old doesn't mean they think the Old is rubbish just not as good.


Niall

[Bill_McBride]

John, I think it's a fair question because there lies a course consistently ranked in the top 5 in the world, surrounded by courses nowhere near the top 100.

John


Re your basic premis that the Old Course is vastly superior to the other courses I think you will find plenty of locals who will tell you it's not even the best course there let alone vastly superior. Mind you those locals have the advantage of being local and therefore don't get overawed by the romance and history of the place every time they play.


Niall

Is it possible the locals don't enjoy the long rounds on the Old?

[Niall C]

Bill


I think perhaps its the dour and unsentimental nature of a lot of Scots (hows that for a huge generalisation !) as I've suggested before, that and the "fact" that the other courses are very good golf courses such that there probably isn't as much of a gulf as suggested in the OP. BTW I'm not suggesting all locals or even the majority think the Jubilee or New are better but I've spoken to a fair few who do. By local I mean Scots in general as well as those that live or hail from St Andrews.


If St Andrews wasn't the home of golf and all the courses there were built about 120 years ago I think it would be a bit like Bandon where each course would have its proponents. 


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,

is it not the case that each course at St.Andrews has its own character and is aimed at a particular standard of golf whilst being playable and enjoyable by all other standards? I think this is the beauty of the town and its courses. Top championship course through to a putting green. University filling the town with students which has many retirees as residents. It is diversity that make the place.

My questioning of Steve's way of thinking is that there is something wrong with having diversity instead of five times the same.

Jon

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not sure if its been specifically mentioned or not, but I think the course gets some of its "value" from the non-tangible things like its history, the players who have played there, its origins, its "hallowed ground-ness" for lack of a better phrase.  You can take some of those holes like #1 and 18 and put them on another course and no one would be talking about them.
 
Without this, I suspect TOC would still be highly esteemed but perhaps not in the same top tier that it is now.
 
To some extent, I think ANGC also benefits from these non-tangibles as well as a membership where money is literally no object.

[Steve Salmen]

Please be clear: I'm not advocating or suggesting anything at all.  I live in the US. Great to me is willingness to fly over the Atlantic to play. I would not be willing to fly by myself to spend a week just in St. Andrews to play any of the courses.  People fly in from all over the world to play a sliver of a course between a white shell path. Outside the path lies massive amounts of golf. Personally, none of the golf holes are very memorable except the par 3 on the New along the water 225 yds or so.  7,11, and 16 are my tops at the Old. I remember liking the Jubilee but dont remember any holes. That being said, I don't remember any bad holes. I have not played the Eden.

[Mark Pearce]

I'm not sure how you could play the Eden and not remember the crossing par 3s.  This is a thread entirely based on an incorrect premise.

[Jon Wiggett]

I'm watching the GC coverage of golf in Scotland. From time to time, they show an aerial view of the golf courses. There are 5 courses adjacent to each other if I'm not correct?

My question is this: since the Old sits in the middle of a lot of golfing land and golf holes already in existence, what is the marginal effort required, if even possible, to improve the surrounding land or holes so they're comparable to those of the Old?

It seems odd to me that there are 90 odd holes and only a select 18 in the middle gets all the attention.  Why is a golf course regarded so highly surrounded by such relative mediocrity?

My comments are not meant to be an attack on you in any way but rather to point out that most of the rankings are very narrow in what they judge. The other 78 odd holes that you label as mediocre fill a slightly different demand than the TOC and do so to a very high standard.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Niall


Local or not, to suggest The New (or is it the Joob?) is in the same league as TOC is far fetched. 

Not really. Locals just aren't affected by the romance and history the same way visitors are and see it for what it is which is a very good golf course. That some of them, not all of them obviously, think the New or Jubilee or perhaps both are better than the Old doesn't mean they think the Old is rubbish just not as good.


Niall

Niall


I didn't suggest locals think TOC is rubbish.  I only suggested that TOC is miles beyond the others in terms of interest and design.  I like TNC just fine and think it has a handful of very good holes.  TNC and certainly Joob are more difficult than TOC, but that doesn't mean much to me.  Its more than merely the history of TOC which makes it a special course.  It is unique while the others in town are much of a muchness with other courses. 


Ciao

[James Bennett]

I suspect that if the green fees for the Old, New, Jubilee and Eden were the same and access wasn't an issue, the locals would play more golf on the Old and less on the New, Jubilee and Eden than they do today.

[Niall C]

James


You might be right for some, and I dare say for others they would spend more time on the Jubilee, or New, or Eden depending on their preference. I don't think the Old is considered universally as the best, at least locally, contrary to what rankings and the vast majority on here might think, that's all I was saying.


Jon


To an extent the courses do perform different functions with the Old, New and Jubilee being the big boys courses with the rest being beginners or social style golf (that's my own perception and classification, feel free to disagree). Not sure they were necessarily designed that way though, at least at the outset. I tend to think of the Eden as being the smaller course (not sure how it compares to the others off the yellows) but I don't think that was the intention when it was built. The Jubilee might have started life as a short relief or ladies course but it was extended and redesigned to on more than one occasion to bring it up to championship spec.


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,

I cannot remember the brief for the Eden design but I do suspect it was to build a shorter course than the New and TOC. The Jubilee was designed to fulfil a perceived need and Strath was definitely seen as being for the beginner. However I digress. What my point is that the Jubilee, New and the present day Old are good championship courses but very Mediocre beginners courses. Steve's supposition is therefore reliant on judging all courses by a set standard where as to be fair to a course you need to judge it by how it fulfils it purpose.

Jon

[Niall C]

Niall


Local or not, to suggest The New (or is it the Joob?) is in the same league as TOC is far fetched. 

Not really. Locals just aren't affected by the romance and history the same way visitors are and see it for what it is which is a very good golf course. That some of them, not all of them obviously, think the New or Jubilee or perhaps both are better than the Old doesn't mean they think the Old is rubbish just not as good.


Niall

Niall


I didn't suggest locals think TOC is rubbish.  I only suggested that TOC is miles beyond the others in terms of interest and design.  I like TNC just fine and think it has a handful of very good holes.  TNC and certainly Joob are more difficult than TOC, but that doesn't mean much to me.  Its more than merely the history of TOC which makes it a special course.  It is unique while the others in town are much of a muchness with other courses. 


Ciao

Sean


Understood. I was clarifying my thoughts.


Niall

[Ed Brzezowski]

Nine on the New and 12 on TOC, two of the best golf holes on the planet. Saying that most of the holes on TOC are forgetful is nuts.

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