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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2015, 07:43:26 PM »
Ben,
 
The newspaper articles are basically quoting Banks's statement, made prior to the construction of the hole.
 
I had the "charcoal" discovery discussion directly with Scott Ramsay, years ago.
Your premise about the use of charcoal in the front tier is pure conjecture.
The charcoal layer does not exist in any approach on the golf course, only within the putting surfaces.
 
Mark Bourgeois has a clear photo, taken on opening day, that shows the front tier as putting surface.
 
What other evidence is necessary to establish that the front tier was built as putting surface.
 
 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2015, 07:44:20 PM »
Jim,
 
That's incredible.
 
Who played first ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2015, 07:46:48 PM »
Ben and Bill,
 
Why has noone addressed and sufficiently answered the maintenance question I raised ?
 
If the green and swale wasn't built as putting surface, how was it maintained ?
 
What equipment did they use to mow the front tier and swale

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2015, 09:41:42 PM »
Pat,


Again, as I stated in my long post setting forth my research, I don't care what the answer is. I just wanted to put all of the facts out there so people can make arguments based on them.


One point you keep coming back to in dismissing the relevance of the Banks description (I already conceded at the outset of my post that the "newspapers archives shed some, but again no definitive, light on the situation, as most of the descriptions are (largely verbatim) versions of Banks's description") is that he wrote it "before the construction of the hole." Based on the research I set forth, that's not true. Unless you have different sources that place Banks's description at an earlier date, Banks's description first appeared in the August 28, 1925 edition of the Yale Alumni Weekly. That was AFTER a picture of the fully built ninth green appeared in a Hartford Courant article 12 days earlier, on August 16, 1925. Allowing for the fact that the course continued to be tweaked that fall and winter, that means that Banks's description was made either after or at least during, but certainly not before, the hole's construction. That doesn't mean your all-green view isn't correct, only that refuting the half-green view based on Banks's description allegedly coming before construction is not valid.


I in no way doubt that you had the conversation with Scott and that what he found is 100% true. But it is not definitive proof of anything. It certainly is the best evidence supporting the all-green view--and very strong evidence at that--but my (admitted) conjecture about using it to account for contingencies was simply to point out that, as a matter of logic, it doesn't rule out the half-green view. I also acknowledge at the outset of my post that, as you've noted, the charcoal "was otherwise found only under the green surfaces at Yale."


I've seen the picture Mark posted. As noted in my post, in the similar picture embedded in the September 30, 1925 "Pictorial Supplement" from the Yale Daily News--after construction, but before opening day, which wasn't until April 15, 1926--the shade of the front and back tiers indeed looks the same, but the mowing pattern looks different (with the back tier cut like the 18th green in the picture on the right).


Perhaps the answer lies in what, to me, is the most illuminating find in my research: the sentence in the same August 28, 1925 Yale Alumni Weekly article in which Banks's description appears, where the author notes, as far as I can tell (the image quality isn't great), that "no pity for misplay was exhibited in laying out this hole, unless one excepts the fact that the approach to the hole is smoother and longer than usual." That language fits best with what we see in the pictures--a front tier that looks an awful lot like green, but might just be, as the author notes, an "approach to the hole [that] is smoother and longer than usual."


I haven't answered your maintenance question, which I concede is a good one, because I don't know the answer and don't want to engage in conjecture. The only facts we have are Scott's finding about the charcoal and the words and images in the contemporaneous publications. Together, they do not prove either the all-green or half-green view conclusively--but I think the "smoother and longer" description might well be the way to reconcile them and let supporters of both views have and eat their cake.


I hope you're well,


Benjamin

"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Matthew Essig

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2015, 10:32:37 PM »
So, I am new to this discussion, and I have been convinced that the entire complex was always intended to be green; however, I still haven't been convinced that the front of the green was ever supposed to have holes cut there. What is the evidence indicating there was intent for front hole locations?

8 at Old Mac has green in front of the trough, too, but holes aren't cut (at least according to the pin sheet) in the front. Tees are elevated there, too.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Bill Brightly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2015, 10:56:50 PM »

 
January 22, 1926: Seth Raynor passes away from pneumonia in West Palm Beach, Florida. (I recognize that some say he died on January 23 or 24, but the Brooklyn Daily Eagle's article about his passing is dated January 23 (in the January 24, 1926 print edition) and refers to his having passed away "last night.")
 
January 31, 1926: Alluding to what could hold the key to this mystery, the New York Times notes that, "in an elaborate report the committee [the Executive Committee of the Board of Control, as distinct from the Golf Committee] reviewed the work on the course, its finances and every detail from the throwing of the first shovelful of dirt more than a year ago until the present time." That same article notes that "[m]uch work has been done the past Fall and Winter [of 1925-26] under the supervision of William E. Perkins, the superintendent." Unless someone (the microfiche collection at Yale's Beinecke library, perhaps?) has a copy of the Executive Committee's report, perhaps we'll never know the answer. (The online version of "Golf at Yale" has a bibliography with a link to a February 22, 1926 Golf Committee, as opposed to Executive Committee, report, but the link is broken.)
 


Thanks for the excellent research, Ben.

Creating a front pin location is EXACTLY the type of change that a Committee and/or a superintendent would make to hole that must have looked very weird to those people in the 1920's. As I mentioned earlier, the Biarritz hole was often referred to as Macdonald's Folly. I belong to a Banks course where many of the "weird" MacRaynor features were erased by well intentioned Committee members and architects, including Tillinghast and William Gordon. Our Biarritz hole was the first thing they touched. Tillinghast suggested removal of the aproach bunkers to save money. William Gordon filled in the swale and raised the bunker floors of the back bunkers. He made the hole "look normal"  in the RTJ style that was popular in 1961.

When we restored the hole to its original design about 6 years ago, it was extremely controversial. Many of the members had little or no understanding of the genesis of such a hole and despite my best efforts to explain it in a newsletter, many continue to hate the restored hole today. It does look odd; unlike almost every other long par three our members have played. And it is a HARD hole. If the wrong group of members ever got into power, I can easily envision them attempting to "fix" it again...

Pat had a very interesting discussion with Scott Ramsey who said he found a charcoal layer beneath the approach. That is a very cool and knowing Pat's love for golf course architecture, it is completely understandable that he would want to be part of re-writing history. It really would be amazing if Seth Raynor came up with this change, because it is a HUGE variation. Of course, Pat can add no facts beyond the charcoal, just 100% speculation about the reasons that might have caused Raynor to make this change. Not one iota of evidence that Raynor changed the design. Not one iota of evidence that Raynor's top assistant even knew about the change as the project was winding down. To deny or attempt to "explain away" Banks' very clear writings is utterly absurd.

It is also a complete waste of time to talk about how the ball rolls today at Yale #9. Green speed is one factor in how well a ball rolls on a green but a FAR more important factor on a long approach is how firm the ground is below the grass. We need to know what the first bounce looked like in 1925. We all know what happens when a wayward drive in August lands outside the sprinkler throw. Of course the balls bounds MUCH further than it would have in the nearby watered rough, even though the grass is cut at the same length.

Twelve guys from my club played at Western Gailes in Scotland this year on greens that probably stimped at 9, but on the downwind holes our well-hit wedges would not hold the green if flown to the putting surface. The first bounce was huge and the ball would bound over. We quickly learned that we had to pick a spot on the approach to land the ball.

These were the conditions that CBM intended for his golf courses and the Biarritz hole, specifically. Macdonald, Raynor and Banks could never have envisioned the advances in agronomy that would allow for the relatively "soft and fast" greens that exist today on the finest parkland courses in the US. So please don't bother to tell us what happened when you last played Yale #9. That is a theory in search of facts. Read the words of Banks who worked at Raynor's side. Know that every other Biarritz hole was designed with the green beyond the swale. Those are facts, not speculation.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 09:23:53 AM by Bill Brightly »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2015, 04:03:51 AM »
A couple of years ago we beat this to death.  From that thread here are 3 photos in chronological order.  The captions for the second and third provide contradictory descriptions of the green.


I kind of like Ben's article's "smoother and longer" description of the approach.


Banks was clear about his design intent.  Somewhere early in the day it was changed in reality.
















Benjamin Litman

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2015, 08:21:02 AM »
Thanks, Bryan. Before I posted my research at the end of the previous page, I went back and read through all of the previous Discussion Group threads on this issue. As I note, what was missing from them based on what I found in my research yesterday are the following three facts:


1. The same August 28, 1925 article in the Yale Alumni Weekly in which Banks's hole-by-hole descriptions appear contains another, separate description of the ninth hole immediately before Banks's descriptions begin. Again, to the best of my ability to make it out (the resolution of the images of the article available in Yale's online digital archives isn't great: http://images.library.yale.edu/madid/showthumb.aspx?q1=Yh10%20+A12&qc1=contains&qf1=subject2&qx=1004.3), that separate description from page 4 of the article provides as follows: "The ninth hole presents a water hazard calculated to daunt any but steady golfing nerves. The play is directly across Greist Pond. . . .  The water carry is 163 yards, and across it the ground rises from the shore of the pond to a fair elevation on which the green is set. No pity for misplay was exhibited in laying out this hole, unless one excepts the fact that the approach to the hole is smoother and longer than usual."


I obviously agree with Bryan that the final sentence provides as much resolution of this issue as we're probably going to get, especially as it describes actual playing conditions as opposed to what could be dismissed as pre-construction architectural intent. As I note in my last post, the language at the end of that sentence fits best with what we see in the pictures--a front tier that looks an awful lot like green, but might just be, as the author notes, an "approach to the hole [that] is smoother and longer than usual." I take "smoother" to mean "cut shorter" than normal approach-length grass, which, by definition, must have already been cut shorter than fairway-length grass.


2. The original Banks description from the same article includes a sentence at the end comparing Yale's Biarritz to the one at the Creek Club. That sentence was also omitted from the previous threads (as well as the "Golf at Yale" book) reproducing Banks's description. It provides as follows: "This type of hole is well set up on the Creek Course where the tide plays a part in the hazard." Again, that sentence/comparison is significant to me because, as Tom Paul noted in the 2009 "Biarritz Conundrum" thread, the Creek did not begin mowing the front tier of its Biarritz as green until late in the 20th century. At the Creek's Biarritz, that is, the architect's intent and the initial maintenance were, for a long time, one and the same, with the front tier being cut as approach, not green.


3. The August 28, 1925 date of the Banks description, together with the picture of the fully built ninth hole in the August 16, 1925 version of the Hartford Courant (as well as the other picture of the fully built ninth hole from the September 30, 1925 "Pictorial Supplement" of the Yale Daily News--the second of the three pictures Bryan just reposted), makes clear that Banks's description was NOT made before the hole's construction, but instead after, or, at worst, as the finishing touches were being added. Again, I'm open to someone pointing out that Banks's description actually predates the August 28, 1925 article in which it appears, but no one has done so. In any event, the separate description in that same article (see point 1 above) proves, to me at least, that the actual initial maintenance of the hole--post-construction, even if not post-formal opening--was in keeping with Banks's description by having an "approach to the hole [that] is smoother and longer than usual."

By the way, Bryan, what is the date of the third picture ("The Famous Water Hole") you posted? It doesn't matter for the analysis--we're all in agreement that, very early on, both tiers were maintained as green--but I'm curious. I've seen the picture before, but can't remember where. Thanks again.
 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 08:26:04 AM by Benjamin Litman »
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2015, 09:36:40 AM »
The picture is from the July 1929 Golf Illustrated (but that doesn't mean much for when it was taken, as they often recycled photos).


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2015, 10:23:17 AM »
"The labor that he lavished on the course left him impatient with golfers who did not respect it. His most famous en­counter came on the day that Sam Snead had appeared to play the course. Meusel happened to be near the ninth hole green when Snead’s tee shot landed on the front side of the massive cross-swale. The hole that day was placed on the upper rear green, and Snead took out a wedge and pitched his ball from the front green, taking a huge divot. Meusel immediately rebuked him, and Snead, notoriously short-tempered, was so angry that he stalked off the course and never returned to finish the round!"


Taken from the Yale Golf history site-

https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/Eras/1944-1974/Meusel.htm


Chris, 


I suppose at this point not many really care about Sam Snead chipping over the swale, but I always found this story very interesting.  I have heard several versions of the story.  If you look under Al Wilson on the same website, it explains how he received his PGA certification over the phone from Sam Snead.  The only time Sam Snead played Yale he was reprimanded by Meusel for chipping on the ninth and then walked off the course after playing the tenth hole poorly.


I'd love to hear Sam's side of the story.  Keeping in mind that Sam Snead played regularly at The Old White, which was also a Macdonald/Raynor course with a Biarritz.  I wonder if the Biarritz was still in place at the Greenbrier when Sam was there?


Bret
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 10:26:04 AM by Bret Lawrence »

Donnie Beck

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2015, 09:55:29 PM »
Bill,

This is from the Levick Collection at the NYPL. The date on the webpage is not stated but my notes say 1925. I have a much higher quality pic of it but do not have permission to share. I have posted this pic at a large size in hope that what is clear in the original is clear in this photo: the front was maintained as green from the opening.



Are you people blind? Have you ever mown a green? Look at the curvature of the cleanup pass on the front left and front right of the back tier. Look at the color difference in the swale. Why is the swale darker color? Maybe because it is cut at a different height! I agree with Bill on every point with the exception of most greens play firmer with the front section cut at greens height. It takes much more water to keep greens alive at .100" than it does at a common approach height of .325" Not many courses had fairway irrigation when these greens were built allowing rock hard approaches which would allow the ball to release to "the green proper"!


Bill Brightly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2015, 11:37:49 PM »
Donnie,


Thanks for the response. The color of the swale should be such an obvious indicator. Thanks for pointing that out.


I should have qualified my comment by saying the Biarritz approach on the typical, fully irrigated,  parkland MacRayonor course will play firmer if the turf is maintained as putting surface rather than fairway.


The course you take care of is not typical for the United States!


Since I have never mowed a green and am not afraid to ask a dumb question, what is a clean up pass?






P.S. Do you guys know that the pin on Donnie's logo only shows one of the three courses that Raynor routed on that piece of property? I have always wondered what the other courses would have looked like if they built a second course. Would Raynor have repeated many of the template holes or would have improvised more? Or would a different architect have been hired?






« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 11:44:59 PM by Bill Brightly »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2015, 11:47:07 PM »
Donnie,

The difference in the shade of the swale can be attributed to the angle of the bank of the swale versus the angle of the surfaces of the two tiers

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2015, 12:20:27 AM »
I agree with Pat on the color-of-the-swale point. Before I made my earlier posts, I had considered precisely that point, but for the reason Pat states as well as others, I determined it wasn't dispositive of anything and therefore omitted it from my analysis.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2015, 12:38:54 AM »
Donnie,

Thanks for the response. The color of the swale should be such an obvious indicator. Thanks for pointing that out.


Bill and Donnie, check out this photo.  It's from Ian Andrew's blog, and shows the pin in the front (i.e. swale is part of the green) and the swale itself much darker, much as in the photo Mark posted...



So I don't think the darker color in the old B&W photo tells us anything about whether the swale was part of the green. 

Donnie Beck

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today New
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2015, 06:53:35 AM »




This picture clearly shows a clean up pass around the perimeter of the back tier. Under that lighting if the entire complex was in fact all mown as one green the crest of the hill going into the valley would have the brightest light dark stripes from the mowing pattern and it does not.




« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 07:54:53 AM by Donnie Beck »