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Bill Brightly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2015, 07:03:44 PM »
Bill:

You completely misunderstood the gist of my first sentence.  I was not talking about pinning it, merely grassing it as a green.

Sven


Grassing it as green obviously invites pinning it. And THAT is a major departure from the design intent. I just don't want people to mistakenly think that was Raynor's idea.

Chris Hans

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2015, 08:25:26 PM »
"The labor that he lavished on the course left him impatient with golfers who did not respect it. His most famous en­counter came on the day that Sam Snead had appeared to play the course. Meusel happened to be near the ninth hole green when Snead’s tee shot landed on the front side of the massive cross-swale. The hole that day was placed on the upper rear green, and Snead took out a wedge and pitched his ball from the front green, taking a huge divot. Meusel immediately rebuked him, and Snead, notoriously short-tempered, was so angry that he stalked off the course and never returned to finish the round!"


Taken from the Yale Golf history site-

https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/Eras/1944-1974/Meusel.htm
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 08:27:08 PM by Chris Hans »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2015, 09:04:52 PM »
[color= green]
Ben,


The article was written PRIOR to the construction of the 9th hole and therefore shouldn't be relied upon in determining what the "as built" was.


The fact that a charcoal layer is ONLY found beneath he putting surfaces at Yale, and that layer exists under the front tier, is perhaps overwhelming evidence that the front tier was designed and built as putting surface

[/color]


Pat: I was referring to the hole's design and based my comments off of the "Golf at Yale" book written by John Godley and William Kelly (long available online, now available in print at the pro shop and various Internet outlets, including Amazon). Their book includes the below entry in the hole-by-hole section at the end (emphasis in original). Perhaps the word "fairway" in my post was inaccurate, but the entry confirms that the front of the green was at least designed not as green.


Charles Banks in 1925: “This hole has its original on the Biarritz course at the famous watering hole in France of the same name… There is a 163 yard carry from the back tee. The green proper is behind a deep trench in the approach. The approach is about the same size as the green itself and is bunkered heavily on both right and left with water jutting in on the right front. The fairway is the lake… The green is heavily battered at the back and right and the whole psychology of the hole is to let out to the limit… Correct play for this green is to carry to the near edge of the groove or trench and come up on the green with a roll. The disappearance and reappearance of the ball in the groove adds to the interest of the play.”

Playing again from an elevated tee, the golfer faces another water carry to an enormous two-tiered green, some sixty-four yards deep. What is most interesting in Banks’s 1925 description is that originally the “green proper” was only beyond the deep “groove,” and he considered the flat landing after the water and before the groove to be an “approach” area. It has now been incorporated as the front half of the green, protected on right and left by bunkers.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 09:29:04 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2015, 09:28:03 PM »
Bill Brightly,


You're wrong on this, and as Mark B explained, Scott Ramsey, the Superintendent who's intimately familiar with the golf course agrees with me.


What you don't understand about the 9th at Yale is that it represents a noticeable departure from all other Biarritz's as the tee is elevated so high above the green.


Inherent in the design of the Biarritz is a form of "playability".
Namely, running the ball from short of the footpad, onto the front tier, through the trough and up onto the back tier.


That shot is impossible at Yale because the features permitting that shot don't exist.


You can't land short of the green and run the ball up onto the footpad, let alone onto the front tier, through the trough and onto the back tier.


All other Biarritz's incorporate the ground game, whereas Yale is strictly aerial.
You must land your ball on the green.


The other feature preventing run is the deep, wide trough.


Getting balls to land on the green, then roll to the trough, then down and back up the trough to the back tier is almost impossible, even with today's high Stimp speeds.


And as almost as impossible as it is today, it would be totally impossible if the front tier and trough was mowed at fairway height.


CBM/SR recognized that and therefor altered the template.


The enormous differential in height between the tee and the green is UNIQUE to Yale.


Thus, referencing other Biarritzs, as if they are the sole template, is irrelevant.


Yale's Biarritz departs from the standard because of the unique topography.


And, the charcoal layer on the front tier, ONLY found under the putting surfaces at Yale, is proof positive that the front tier was built and maintained as green from opening day.


You have so much to learn and I only have so much time.😜

Bill Brightly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2015, 09:48:07 PM »
[color= green]
Ben,
The fact that a charcoal layer is ONLY found beneath he putting surfaces at Yale, and that layer exists under the front tier, is perhaps overwhelming evidence that the front tier was designed and built as putting surface
[/color]

Pat,

Yale #9 may well have been built with a charcoal layer but it was never designed to have front and back pin locations. The quote by Charles Banks make that completely clear.

You are obviously a fan of Macdonald so I'm really surprised that you would continue to attempt to imply that Raynor somehow had an epiphany and decided to create a front pin location. I have no doubt that you understand that this would be a HUGE departure from Macdonald's template. What makes you think Seth Raynor would do this?

I know that you and Scott Ramsey are excited by the discovery of charcoal beneath the approach. I agree that it is cool and I guess you both feel the need to "do something" with this little tidbit. However, you have not been able to show evidence that Raynor designed the hole as it now is played.

So you can claim it was built with a front putting surface and I won't argue. But please do not don't muddy the waters and state it was DESIGNED that way. I think that is a distortaion of Macdonald and Raynor's design intent.

I play a Biaritz hole two or three time each week. About one in ten times the pin is up front and the hole pales in comparison to a back pin. Yale #9 is perhaps one of the first ever decisions by "The Committee." And  if he were alive today, I think CB Macdonald would be PISSED every time he saw a front pin location on a Biarritz hole."hd

You know in your heart this was probably one of the first decisions by "The Committee."
 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 10:12:34 PM by Bill Brightly »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2015, 09:54:57 PM »
Bill Brightly,


You're wrong on this, and as Mark B explained, Scott Ramsey, the Superintendent who's intimately familiar with the golf course agrees with me.


What you don't understand about the 9th at Yale is that it represents a noticeable departure from all other Biarritz's as the tee is elevated so high above the green.


Inherent in the design of the Biarritz is a form of "playability".
Namely, running the ball from short of the footpad, onto the front tier, through the trough and up onto the back tier.


That shot is impossible at Yale because the features permitting that shot don't exist.


You can't land short of the green and run the ball up onto the footpad, let alone onto the front tier, through the trough and onto the back tier.


All other Biarritz's incorporate the ground game, whereas Yale is strictly aerial.
You must land your ball on the green.


The other feature preventing run is the deep, wide trough.


Getting balls to land on the green, then roll to the trough, then down and back up the trough to the back tier is almost impossible, even with today's high Stimp speeds.


And as almost as impossible as it is today, it would be totally impossible if the front tier and trough was mowed at fairway height.


CBM/SR recognized that and therefor altered the template.


The enormous differential in height between the tee and the green is UNIQUE to Yale.


Thus, referencing other Biarritzs, as if they are the sole template, is irrelevant.


Yale's Biarritz departs from the standard because of the unique topography.

And, the charcoal layer on the front tier, ONLY found under the putting surfaces at Yale, is proof positive that the front tier was built and maintained as green from opening day.
You have so much to learn and I only have so much time.😜
Now you have CBM changing his design intent? Have you been partying with Tom Paul again? :)

Enlighten us. How did the ball roll in the mid 1920's when the hole was built? :)

Show us where Raynor or Macdonald said the approach to the rear section was designed to be in the air?


« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 09:59:00 PM by Bill Brightly »

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2015, 10:19:48 PM »
Bill,

This is from the Levick Collection at the NYPL. The date on the webpage is not stated but my notes say 1925. I have a much higher quality pic of it but do not have permission to share. I have posted this pic at a large size in hope that what is clear in the original is clear in this photo: the front was maintained as green from the opening.

Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2015, 10:44:09 PM »
[color= green]
Ben,
The fact that a charcoal layer is ONLY found beneath he putting surfaces at Yale, and that layer exists under the front tier, is perhaps overwhelming evidence that the front tier was designed and built as putting surface
[/color]

Pat,

Yale #9 may well have been built with a charcoal layer but it was never designed to have front and back pin locations. The quote by Charles Banks make that completely clear.


Bill,

Once again you fail to come to grips with the FACT that Raynor's comment was made BEFORE the green was ever built.  Ergo, it's irrelevant.



You are obviously a fan of Macdonald so I'm really surprised that you would continue to attempt to imply that Raynor somehow had an epiphany and decided to create a front pin location. I have no doubt that you understand that this would be a HUGE departure from Macdonald's template. What makes you think Seth Raynor would do this?


Raynor would do this because it became blatantly obvious that the "traditional" Biarritz was unworkable/unplayable given the unique nature of the topography.

Ross's original field drawing of # 7 at MRCC shows a triple tier green, yet a punch bowl was built.

Aronomink, the entire course was not built as Ross's field drawings depicted.  Ron Prichard rebuilt the course based upon the field drawings.   So building # 9 at Yale with a putting surface for the front tier is not only reasonable, but given the topography the only prudent option.   The hole is unplayable otherwise.


I know that you and Scott Ramsey are excited by the discovery of charcoal beneath the approach. I agree that it is cool and I guess you both feel the need to "do something" with this little tidbit. However, you have not been able to show evidence that Raynor designed the hole as it now is played.


Yes, we have.
In addition to the charcoal layer, photos from opening day and contemporaneous writings confirm same.

Face it, you're just in denial.
You just can't come to grips with the fact that Raynor departed from the template, as he did with many of his holes on other courses.

So you can claim it was built with a front putting surface and I won't argue. But please do not don't muddy the waters and state it was DESIGNED that way. I think that is a distortaion of Macdonald and Raynor's design intent.




That's just your opinion, one not borne out by the facts.
It was built as it as designed, with the front tier as putting surface.


I play a Biaritz hole two or three time each week. About one in ten times the pin is up front and the hole pales in comparison to a back pin. Yale #9 is perhaps one of the first ever decisions by "The Committee." And  if he were alive today, I think CB Macdonald would be PISSED every time he saw a front pin location on a Biarritz hole."hd






Bill, the Biarritz you play is on flat terrain.
A Biarritz that bears no resemblance to the Biarritz at Yale.


And to add to the case for the front hole location, just look at Raynor's original field drawing of the Biarritz ar Westhampton 😜





You know in your heart this was probably one of the first decisions by "The Committee."

Bill Vogeney

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2015, 10:49:43 PM »
Just played Yale on 9/29 for the first time. Pin was up front-really is the toughest pin placement there because you must be so precise with your distance control.


My playing partner Dr. Teeth, just for giggles, went all of the way to the back of the green and tried to putt to the front pin location. If I recall, he got it inside 10 feet. I would rather putt from one section to the other-I personally would only chip on a green if there was no way to putt and get within 10 feet because of other green exterior contours.


Only have played to other Biarritz holes-Shoreacres and Coor and Crenshaw's at Streamsong. Raynor's version at Yale is my favorite-takes my breath away

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2015, 11:01:12 PM »

Now you have CBM changing his design intent? Have you been partying with Tom Paul again? :)

Enlighten us. How did the ball roll in the mid 1920's when the hole was built? :) 


Slowly


Show us where Raynor or Macdonald said the approach to the rear section was designed to be in the air?


Bill, with greens stimping at 6-8 and the front tier and trough maintained as fairway, from that tee elevation you can't get to the back tier by landing the ball on the front tier.

It's common sense which doesn't seem to be so common 😜




Bill Brightly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2015, 02:37:09 AM »


Pat,
Bill,

Once again you fail to come to grips with the FACT that Raynor's comment was made BEFORE the green was ever built.

Pat, you are wrong. Banks wrote the article, not Raynor.

Ergo, it's irrelevant.

Ergo, it is critical, Banks is explaining the architect's intent!

Raynor would do this because it became blatantly obvious that the "traditional" Biarritz was unworkable/unplayable given the unique nature of the topography.

Absolute speculation on your part. You DO NOT know if a tee shot in 1925 could land on the front section and roll to the back. Speculation interjected because it seems to support your theory. Raynor was an engineer. He could have easily altered the terrain in any number of ways.

This is your theory: Seth "The Engineer" said: "Oh my God, this swale is too deep and too steep! I better completely deviate from Macdonald's intent and make the front section a putting green because I'd hate to move any dirt!"


Ross's original field drawing of # 7 at MRCC shows a triple tier green, yet a punch bowl was built.

Was Ross on site during the construction or did others build the hole based upon his drawings?

Aronomink, the entire course was not built as Ross's field drawings depicted. Ron Prichard rebuilt the course based upon the field drawings.
 
Thank you, this makes my point. Others in charge of golf course construction can and often did deviate from the architect's plans.

In addition to the charcoal layer, photos from opening day and contemporaneous writings confirm same.

There is not one piece of evidence that Seth Raynor intended the front section to have pin locations. Find that, and you have something.

Face it, you're just in denial.

Yes. I deny that you have proven the case that Raynor designed the hole to have two pinnable sections.

I like my speculation far better: Someone in charge of The Course at Yale said something like this: "What a crazy hole! I know how to fix Macdonald's Folly. We'll use some of this left over charcoal, make the front section pinnable, and then we'll have a better golf hole."

You just can't come to grips with the fact that Raynor departed from the template,

Correct. I can't accept your speculation because you have not proven the case.


Bill, the Biarritz you play is on flat terrain.
A Biarritz that bears no resemblance to the Biarritz at Yale.


There is an VERY strong resemblance. Both very long par threes have the classic bunkered approach and a deep swale in front of the green.   Obviously, we do not have a pond and the tee is level with the green.


And to add to the case for the front hole location, just look at Raynor's original field drawing of the Biarritz ar Westhampton 😜


I'd love to see that. Send it to me and I'll post it. If Raynor broke away from Macdonald's Biarritz concept at Yale, why didn't he do it at later courses such as Fishers Island? Why didn't Banks build ANY of his Biarritz holes with two putting sections? Why didn't CBM mentioned this major deviation in Scotland's Gift?
You know in your heart this was probably one of the first decisions by "The Committee."
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:06:22 AM by Bill Brightly »

Jim Nugent

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2015, 08:06:52 AM »

There is not one piece of evidence that Seth Raynor intended the front section to have pin locations. Find that, and you have something.
You know in your heart this was probably one of the first decisions by "The Committee."

Bill,

Yale let some alumni play the course in autumn 1925, as a pre-opening.  They gave it rave reviews.  #9 had been built by then.  If Scott Ramsay is right (can you show why/how he is not?), the green contained the back part, swale and front part. 

Raynor was still alive.  The History of Yale Golf says, "Throughout  1925, he (Raynor) combined periodic visits to New Haven  with extensive travel to other ongoing commissions."  That history also says, "Raynor was the real genius of this masterpiece, who made the layout, designed the greens, and gave the work of construction his supervision  from start to finish."

So Raynor supervised the course from start to finish.  During that construction, they built #9 as we see it today. 

This says to me Raynor knew they were including the front part in the green.  The alternative is to believe someone hid that fact from him, even as he was supervising construction.   

Bill Brightly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2015, 09:59:27 AM »
Jim,

It is a shame that Raynor did not write about his courses like Macdonald and Banks did. I'm willing to concede that the course was built with the front section as putting surface, but not that Raynor (or CBM) designed it to have a front pin location.

I'm sure Yale was not the first and certainly not the last course where owners requested/demanded a change to the architect's original plans. That happens all the time.

From all of the information presented, it is obvious from Banks' description that the original design was for a putting green beyond the swale. Exactly when that plan was changed, and who mandated the change, is unclear.

I'm being a stickler on this because it is important to get history absolutely right. We cannot speculate that Seth Raynor is the person who first decided that you could have pin locations on the front section of a Biarritz.

If we only looked at what is on the ground today, it would be perfectly logical to assume that Macdonald was inspired by the 15th hole at North Berwick in coming up with the concept of a two-sectioned green with a deep swale in the middle. He loved the course and obviously was inspired by the original Redan on the 14th hole.  It would be perfectly normal for him to mimic the green on the next hole. Of course, that is completely wrong!

« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 10:51:41 AM by Bill Brightly »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2015, 11:47:54 AM »
Bill,

Your position is based solely on your opinion that Raynor would not deviate from the templates.

But we know that's not true.

Banks's comment was made PRIOR to the construction of the hole and therefore NOT FACT BASED ON THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE PRESENT AFTER CONSTRUCTION.

The enormous differential in height, with the tee high above the green separates the 9th at Yale from every other Biarritz.

I've hit low choked up drivers, attempting to land on the front tier and run the ball to the back tier.

That trough is deep and wide.

The best I ever did was balls that just got to the top of the trough.

It was impossible to land the ball on the front tier and have it roll though the trough into the mid-section of the back tier.

The only way you could get to the mid-section of the back tier was to fly it there or land on the downslope of the trough.

The charcoal layer in the front tier is proof positive that the front tier was built as a putting surface.

If I couldn't get to the mid-section of the back tier by landing on the front tier with the green stimping at
10, with the modern ball and driver  in the 2000's, no one could do it in 1926 with the front tier mowed at fairway height.  And fairway height in 1926 was a lot higher than it is today.

Another factor  that confirms that the front tier and trough were putting surface is maintenance.

Tell us how you would mow the trough and front tier with gang mowers circa 1926.   It would be impossible to mow that trough, except with green mowers.

The evidence is overwhelming, but you want to cling to a refuted theory that Raynor didn't deviate from template design.

The Biarritz at Hackensack is a terrific hole, but the green and the tee are at the same level, ergo the angle of attack into the green can be much shallower than that found at Yale.  The angle of incidence at Yale is very steep, making the play of the hole radically different from Hackensack and every other Biarritz.

Some Biarritzs have flanking kick plates, some have spines/horseshoes within the putting surface, hence the templates are not absolutes, rather, general principles.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2015, 12:11:12 PM »
The enormous differential in height, with the tee high above the green separates the 9th at Yale from every other Biarritz.


I haven't played Yale, so I don't know what "enormous differential" means -- but just to add this:


The Biarritz No. 15 at Somerset Country Club (Raynor; Mendota Heights, Minnesota) is considerably downhill. The swale is in the middle of the green. They put cups both in front of and in back of the swale.


I do not know if that is what Mr. Raynor intended.


I do not know if Mr. Raynor intended there to be holes cut in front of the swale of any of his Biarritz designs. Pity he didn't have Mr. Macdonald's need to write!



"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jim Nugent

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2015, 01:09:01 PM »
If you believe the green was built to include the swale and the front part, then I think you have to agree that Raynor knew about this, and probably approved, too.  After all, he was there during the entire construction process, supervising it from start to finish according to the History of Yale Golf. 

PS -- I do believe the green was built that way. 

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2015, 01:50:18 PM »
I think you have to agree that Raynor knew about this, and probably approved, too. PS -- I do believe the green was built that way.

"Knew about" and probably approved" is a LONG way from conceived and designed.

The later means Raynor came up with the idea to create a front pin location; an incredibly huge deviation from Macdonald's teachings. "Knew about and probably approved" is what happens when a committee forces a change. It cost $450,000 to build Yale, over $6,000,000 in today's dollars. How hard do you think Raynor would push back if the committee (or the greenskeeper) suggested this change?

And when that is incorporated in the history as written by  Yale, do you think they would stress the committee's influence or Raynor's?

Show me were RAYNOR decided to change the template, not "knew about and probably approved."
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 01:55:31 PM by Bill Brightly »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2015, 02:23:22 PM »

I think you have to agree that Raynor knew about this, and probably approved, too. PS -- I do believe the green was built that way.

"Knew about" and probably approved" is a LONG way from conceived and designed.
 
Bill, how can you say that.
The hole was designed and built under Raynor's watchful eye.
 
Do you think he woke up one morning to an enormous surprise ?
 
That green wasn't just sitting there, in nature. 
That green is totally manufactured from the back top of the swale to the pond.
And, that manufacturing was a significant undertaking, one requiring men, material and money.
The 9th green was no surprise.
It was intended and built with the front tier as putting surface.
 
How else do you explain the charcoal layer found beneath it, a layer ONLY found under the putting surfaces at Yale, and NOWHERE else.

The later means Raynor came up with the idea to create a front pin location; an incredibly huge deviation from Macdonald's teachings.
 
So what ?
It wouldn't be the last time that template holes deviated from the ones found at NGLA or elsewhere.
 
The core of your argument lies within your belief that Raynor would NEVER deviate from the "Templates".
 
If that was the case, how do you explain the reverse Redans ?
 
"Knew about and probably approved" is what happens when a committee forces a change.
 
Baloney,
But, that's really irrelevant
Motive is irrelevant, ONLY the "AS BUILT" is relevant.
And, the "AS BUILT" was with the front tier as putting surface.
 
It cost $450,000 to build Yale, over $6,000,000 in today's dollars. How hard do you think Raynor would push back if the committee (or the greenskeeper) suggested this change?
 
First, the cost to build the front tier as putting surface, versus fairway, would be miniscule.
 
Second, What greenskeeper ?
 
Third, What committee.
 
Raynor/CBM was an archictural god in 1925-6.
Who would challenge their creative license ?
 
This wasn't Piping Rock.

And when that is incorporated in the history as written by  Yale, do you think they would stress the committee's influence or Raynor's?
 
Bill, you're desparately grasping at straws and speculating that some committee was responsible for building the front tier as putting surface.
 
What you fail to see is the logic in building the front tier as putting surface given the topography and significant differential in elevation between tee and green.
 
Even today, getting to the back tier is almost impossible.
It's far more challenging than any level Biarritz.
 
The front tier putting surface was the perfect solution to the playability problem created by the elevation differential.

Show me were RAYNOR decided to change the template, not "knew about and probably approved."
 
Heck, that's easy, just go play the hole, the one that Raynor built.
The proof is in the pudding/tasting.
 
When and where Raynor decided to "change the template" is irrelevant.
The fact is that he DID "change the template" as evidenced by building the 9th green with the front tier as putting surface.
 
Your entire argument is based on the romantic notion that Raynor would never dare change a template.
 
And, we know that that's not true, that he did it quite regularly.
 
Just look at all the reverse Redans he conceived, designed and built.
 
You have offered nothing in the way of physical evidence and are relying on a romantic notion.
 
If you've played the 7th at Sleepy Hollow you know I'm right. ;D


Bruce Katona

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2015, 04:51:44 PM »
I played Yale 3 times.  2x I was lucky enough to get my ball to stay on the correct tier the pin was on (front or back).
 
 I had to go from front to back 1x (or front to swale I don't recall) and I 3 putted for bogey.  Had I tried a wedge it would have certainly been bladed clear over the back of the green.
 

Bill Brightly

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2015, 05:21:10 PM »
Since Pat has determined that it was never possible to hit a low running shot through the swale, Yale really should change their website which explains the history of the hole:

Club selection and shot height depend entirely on pin location. When the pin is in the front, you need a high soft shot to hold the front part of the green, which is fairly level. When the pin is in the back, you can hit a lower trajectory that will land in the front and run through the swale up on to the back green. Although that part of the green is angled right to left, you are still often left with a very fast side hill putt.

What is most interesting in Banks’s 1925 description is that originally the “green proper” was only beyond the deep “groove,” and he considered the flat landing after the water and before the groove to be an “approach” area. It has now been incorporated as the front half of the green, protected on right and left by bunkers.

And if Raynor was on board with this change, don't you think he might have clued in his top assistant who wrote this in 1925?

Charles Banks in 1925

“This hole has its original on the Biarritz course at the famous watering hole in France of the same name… There is a 163 yard carry from the back tee. The green proper is behind a deep trench in the approach. The approach is about the same size as the green itself and is bunkered heavily on both right and left with water jutting in on the right front. The fairway is the lake… The green is heavily battered at the back and right and the whole psychology of the hole is to let out to the limit… Correct play for this green is to carry to the near edge of the groove or trench and come up on the green with a roll. The disappearance and reappearance of the ball in the groove adds to the interest of the play.”


Raynor died in January of 1926 before the course formally opened. I doubt he ever saw a front pin location. Which is good, because he would have had a very hard time explaining that to CBM. :)






Jim Hoak

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2015, 06:11:56 PM »
This is probably neither here nor there with regard to the discussion going on, but over 50 years ago in a match play dual meet match, I made a 2 with the pin on the front of #9 and lost to a 1.  I loved the hole till then!

Stephen Davis

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2015, 06:25:17 PM »
Pat,


I agree with you about getting to the back pin via the usual Biarritz run up. We played there and the flag was in the front, so I hit my normal shot, then for fun I hit a low hold off 4 wood to skip across the front and run up to the back. I hit the shot pretty much perfectly and it hit the front and then proceeded to almost embed in the face of the far side of the swale. I don't see how to get the ball up that swale without it coming in super hot, and if the face is kept as soft as it was, then it plugs or at least looses its momentum and falls back into the valley. I LOVED the hole, but if I was facing a back pin here, I would fly it there as well.

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2015, 07:05:06 PM »
Having inadvertently resuscitated this entire debate by my initial response to Charlie's post, I felt a duty to clarify whatever facts I could. I want to note up front that I have zero skin in this game; I love the way the hole plays with both tiers cut as green.
 
The only fact I initially knew--that is, until I just did some additional research in various online archives (newspaper and otherwise)--was the 1925 Banks quotation reproduced in the "Golf at Yale" book (also available at the authors' website: https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/index.htm). That quotation comes from a lengthy preview he wrote about the course for the August 28, 1925 issue of the Yale Alumni Weekly. Banks's complete description (parts of which are ellipsized in the "Golf at Yale" reproduction) reads as follows: "This hole has its original on the Biarritz course at the famous watering hole in France of the same name. This is the second of the short holes and is planned for a single shot with the driver. There is a 163 yard carry from the back tee. The green proper is behind a deep trench in the approach. The approach is about the same size as the green itself and is bunkered heavily on both right and left with water jutting in on the right front. The fairway is the lake. The tees are elevated above the lake. The green is heavily battered at the back and right and the whole psychology of the hole is to let out to the limit. The distance, however, is not as great as it seems, due to the water, and a moderate strike with care is safer than a slam. Correct play for this green is to carry to the near edge of the groove or trench and come up on the green with a roll. The disappearance and reappearance of the ball in the groove adds to the interest of the play. The carry for this play is 190 yards from the back tee. This type of hole is well set up on the Creek Course where the tide plays a part in the hazard."
 
Note in particular the last sentence, alluding to the Biarritz hole at the "Creek Course," which I assume is the Creek Club on Long Island. In going through the earlier GCA threads alluding to Banks's description, I noticed that the Creek sentence is omitted. To me, it's significant because, as Tom Paul noted in the 2009 "Biarritz Conundrum" thread, the Creek did not begin mowing the front tier of its Biarritz as green until late in the 20th century.
 

 
I quickly learned from Pat and others that Scott Ramsay, Yale's magnificent current superintendent, discovered a layer of charcoal, which was otherwise found only under the green surfaces at Yale, beneath the front tier. When I learned that fact, I hypothesized (privately to Pat and publicly in a follow-up post in this thread) that the two (i.e., Banks's words and Ramsay's discovery) were not necessarily mutually exclusive. That is, perhaps the architect's intent was for the front tier to play as approach, while the people in charge of construction built/cut/maintained it as green. We know where things led from there. Although I do not purport to have a definitive answer either way, I will note that, as a logical matter, the presence of charcoal beneath the front tier does not foreclose the possibility that it was designed as approach, not green. Instead, it allows the inference that someone foresaw that playing the front as approach would make reaching the green at the back tier prohibitively difficult, and thus installed the charcoal base to account for the contingency that the front might in fact need to be built/cut/maintained as green.
 
The newspaper archives shed some, but again no definitive, light on the situation, as most of the descriptions are (largely verbatim) versions of Banks's description. To me, the most illuminating find is in the main Yale Alumni Weekly article in which Banks's description appears, where the author notes, as far as I can tell (the image quality is poor), that "no pity for misplay was exhibit in laying out this hole, unless one excepts the fact that the approach to the hole is smoother and longer than usual." I also found the picture and description from the September 30, 1925 "Pictorial Supplement" in the Yale Daily News to be helpful. Note as well that Anthony Pioppi, the President of the Seth Raynor Society and, among other things, the subject of a "Feature Interview" with Ran here on GCA, has an entire blog post on his site devoted to his discovery of the Banks-like description in the Hartford Courant (second entry below) and its effect on his belief as to the mysterious front tier (http://anthonypioppi.blogspot.com/2010/06/yales-biarritz-green.html). I also see that Anthony was also the one to start the 2007 "Reassessing Yale's Biarritz Green" thread here on GCA (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32118.0.html).
 
Notably, the date of the Hartford Courant article Anthony cites--August 16, 1925--suggests that Banks's comments in the August 28, 1925 version of the Yale Alumni Weekly were made either after or during, but not before, the ninth hole was built, as the article features a picture of the ninth hole.
 
I hope the below excerpts are at least somewhat helpful.
 
August 9, 1925: An un-bylined article in the New York Times notes that "[t]he finishing touches are being put on the course this Summer by a small band of men, and it is expected that by October of this year the entire course will be playable."
 
August 16, 1925: An un-bylined article in the Hartford Courant includes a description of the ninth hole. Note that the article also includes a large picture of the ninth hole, but, despite paying to access the article, the resolution of the picture is so poor as to make it useless. For those having trouble reading the text excerpt, the description, which begins in the third full paragraph on the left-hand column, reads: "The ninth hole is over the northwestern end of the Griest pond and has its original on the Biarritz course in France. The green proper is behind a deep groove in the approach which is of about the same area as the green. The approach is bunkered heavily on the right and left and the fairway is the lake. This hole is one of the most interesting of the course and is deceptive because of the full water play, although the hole is not a long one."
 

 
August 28, 1925: An un-bylined article in the Yale Alumni Weekly includes the hole-by-hole descriptions, including that of the ninth hole posted above, now attributed to Charles Banks. In a cruel ironic twist, the concluding paragraph of the article, immediately after the final-hole description, begins by noting that "because of the re-seeding of the greens and fairways during the past few weeks, undergraduates will not be permitted to play the course during the coming fall season." The article also includes a separate description of the ninth hole before the formal hole-by-hole descriptions begin. That separate description, again to the best of my ability to make it out, notes that "the ninth hole presents a water hazard calculated to daunt any but steady golfing nerves. The play is directly across Greist Pond. . . .  The water carry is 163 yards, and across it the ground rises from the shore of the pond to a fair elevation on which the green is set. No pity for misplay was exhibited in laying out this hole, unless one excepts the fact that the approach to the hole is smoother and longer than usual." The last sentence appears to provide some resolution to the debate--allowing both sides to have their cake. The article also includes this side view of the ninth green from the first fairway; given the vantage, little can be made out.
 

 
September 30, 1925: An un-bylined "Pictorial Supplement" in the Yale Daily News includes a picture and description of the ninth hole. The description reads, "A DIFFICULT WATER CARRY. Number Nine hole, 225 yards from the back tee, which has its origins on the Biarritz Course in France. This is the second of the short holes, being planned for a single shot to the green with the driver, with a 163-yard water carry from the back tee. From the Regular Course tee the distance is 210 yards and from the Short Course tee is 190 yards. The green is behind a deep trench in the approach, which is about the same size as the green itself and is heavily bunkered on both sides with water jutting in on the right front. The hole is so designed as to cause considerable trouble for either a hooked or a sliced drive." To my eye, the shade of the front and back tiers in the picture looks the same, but the mowing pattern looks different (with the back tier cut like the 18th green in the picture on the right). (By the way, the bunkering looks positively Cypress Point/Friar's Head-esque!)
 

 
October 29, 1925: The Yale Daily News reports that the course is in "the final stages of completion," with opening set for the following spring. The un-bylined article includes this description of the ninth hole:
 

 
November 19, 1925: The Yale Daily News publishes an un-bylined "Hole-by-Hole Description" of the course, including this description of the ninth hole:
 

 
January 22, 1926: Seth Raynor passes away from pneumonia in West Palm Beach, Florida. (I recognize that some say he died on January 23 or 24, but the Brooklyn Daily Eagle's article about his passing is dated January 23 (in the January 24, 1926 print edition) and refers to his having passed away "last night.")
 
January 31, 1926: Alluding to what could hold the key to this mystery, the New York Times notes that, "in an elaborate report the committee [the Executive Committee of the Board of Control, as distinct from the Golf Committee] reviewed the work on the course, its finances and every detail from the throwing of the first shovelful of dirt more than a year ago until the present time." That same article notes that "[m]uch work has been done the past Fall and Winter [of 1925-26] under the supervision of William E. Perkins, the superintendent." Unless someone (the microfiche collection at Yale's Beinecke library, perhaps?) has a copy of the Executive Committee's report, perhaps we'll never know the answer. (The online version of "Golf at Yale" has a bibliography with a link to a February 22, 1926 Golf Committee, as opposed to Executive Committee, report, but the link is broken.)
 
April 15, 1926: According to the New York Times, the course officially opens, with the first matches played on April 24, 1926. (Apparently, the opening date pertained only to the front nine, as the article notes that the back nine "will be completed by" May 1, 1926.)
 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 07:30:51 PM by Benjamin Litman »
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2015, 07:20:01 PM »

Since Pat has determined that it was never possible to hit a low running shot through the swale, Yale really should change their website which explains the history of the hole:
 
Like Merion needed to change their website regarding Wilson's visit to the UK ?

Club selection and shot height depend entirely on pin location. When the pin is in the front, you need a high soft shot to hold the front part of the green, which is fairly level.
 
When the pin is in the back, you can hit a lower trajectory that will land in the front and run through the swale up on to the back green.

With a carry of 190 to get to the middle to back third of the front tier, from an elevation of about 40 feet above the green, please tell me how you would hit that "low trajectory" club, and, which club it is.
 
I tried running a driver to the back tier by hitting the front tier and could barely get the ball over the trough let alone to the mid-point of the back tier.
 
It's easy to write how to play a hole, it's quite another thing to actually play the hole.
 
By the way, what's the author's handicap ?
 
Although that part of the green is angled right to left, you are still often left with a very fast side hill putt.

What is most interesting in Banks’s 1925 description is that originally the “green proper” was only beyond the deep “groove,” and he considered the flat landing after the water and before the groove to be an “approach” area. It has now been incorporated as the front half of the green, protected on right and left by bunkers.

Banks didn't offer a description of the hole.
He offered an opionion of how it might play.
The hole hadn't been built when Banks wrote his remarks

And if Raynor was on board with this change, don't you think he might have clued in his top assistant who wrote this in 1925?
 
Who said he didn't ?
Banks wrote the article pre-construction.

Charles Banks in 1925

“This hole has its original on the Biarritz course at the famous watering hole in France of the same name… There is a 163 yard carry from the back tee. The green proper is behind a deep trench in the approach. The approach is about the same size as the green itself and is bunkered heavily on both right and left with water jutting in on the right front. The fairway is the lake… The green is heavily battered at the back and right and the whole psychology of the hole is to let out to the limit… Correct play for this green is to carry to the near edge of the groove or trench and come up on the green with a roll. The disappearance and reappearance of the ball in the groove adds to the interest of the play.”


Is Banks referencing the "chasm" hole or the Biarritz ?
 
Banks wrote this prior to the building of the hole, so why do you offer it as being written after construction of the hole ?

Raynor died in January of 1926 before the course formally opened. I doubt he ever saw a front pin location. Which is good, because he would have had a very hard time explaining that to CBM. :)
 
You remain a romantic. 
A misguided romantic, but, a romantic nonetheless.


Benjamin Litman

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Re: Over the swale at Yale today
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2015, 07:34:56 PM »
Pat, see my long post above yours. Based on some research I did this afternoon, I conclude, among other things, as follows: "Notably, the date of the Hartford Courant article Anthony cites--August 16, 1925--suggests that Banks's comments in the August 28, 1925 version of the Yale Alumni Weekly were made either after or during, but not before, the ninth hole was built, as the article features a picture of the ninth hole."
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

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