The case for fast greens

[Bob Montle]

By now, I am convinced that Pat is just playing with us, as I am sure that he knows the ball speed at the bottom of the meter is always constant, no matter where it is used or who is administering the test.    As an intelligent gentleman, he is most assuredly just stringing us along and probably laughing at how long we go before realizing his little joke.

Either that, or

[Sean_A]

By now, I am convinced that Pat is just playing with us
[/size][/color]
[/size]This is Mucci's MO.  Many of his posts are a waste of time...he is trying to wind people up...for what reason I don't know.  It can't be that entertaining to sit in room rubbing his hands togeher like Smithers [/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Ciao[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

By now, I am convinced that Pat is just playing with us, as I am sure that he knows the ball speed at the bottom of the meter is always constant, no matter where it is used or who is administering the test.    As an intelligent gentleman, he is most assuredly just stringing us along and probably laughing at how long we go before realizing his little joke.
 
Bob,
 
The speed of the ball should be universal as it travels down the ramp, unless the holder adjusts the angle of the ramp.
 
But, onnce the ball hits the green, "friction" determines roll out and speed.
 
And, higher stimping greens result in balls rolling faster, don't you agree ?
 


Either that, or

[Jon Wiggett]

Bob,

I am not so sure. I think Pat is giving a classic example of where the dangerous mix of ignorance and vanity will lead. For what ever reason he thinks that the difference between a green stimping a 12ft and another at 6 ft is that the ball on the green stimping at 12ft actually does roll quicker.

Pat,

Regardless of the stimp reading of a green the ball will always reach the bottom of the meter at the same speed. A higher stimping green will take longer for the ball to slow to a stop due to less friction giving a longer stimp reading. At no point will it roll quicker than the maxium speed of the green with the lower stimp reading. You however claim it will. How in your opinion does the higher stimping green accelerate the ball rolling across it?

Golf balls do not roll faster on a higher stimping green they roll further which is why stimp is measured in distance and not speed.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I am not so sure. I think Pat is giving a classic example of where the dangerous mix of ignorance and vanity will lead. For what ever reason he thinks that the difference between a green stimping a 12ft and another at 6 ft is that the ball on the green stimping at 12ft actually does roll quicker.

Pat,

Regardless of the stimp reading of a green the ball will always reach the bottom of the meter at the same speed.
 
That's only if the ramps remain static.
And, that was never in question.
 
A higher stimping green will take longer for the ball to slow to a stop due to less friction giving a longer stimp reading. At no point will it roll quicker than the maxium speed of the green with the lower stimp reading.
 
Not true.
 
You just don't understand the impact of friction.
The ball on the lower stimping green will begin to roll at a lower speed than the ball on the higher stimping green as soon as both balls hit the putting surface.
 
On side by side greens "A" and "B" with "A" stimping at 6 and "B" stimping at 12, when both balls hit the green, tell us, when the ball on green "B" is at 7 feet, how fast is the ball on green "A" rollling ?
 
Same question at 8, 9, 10 and 11 feet.
 
Oh wait, the ball on green "A" is at a dead stop at 7 feet.
And, it's also at a dead stop at 8,  9, 10 and 11 feet.
 
So tell me again how both balls are rolling at the same speeds
 
You however claim it will. How in your opinion does the higher stimping green accelerate the ball rolling across it?
 
It doesn't accelerate it, the difference is that the ball on the slower stimping green will DECELERATE quicker/faster.

Golf balls do not roll faster on a higher stimping green they roll further which is why stimp is measured in distance and not speed.
 
I never thought that somebody could be this obtuse.
 
Tell me again, on those two greens, at the 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 foot mark, which ball is rolling faster ?
 
I'll help you out.
 
It's NOT the ball that's at a dead stop at the six foot mark.


Jon

[SL_Solow]

Pat;  you are correct as far as your argument goes.  The reason a green stimps at a lesser number is because of increased friction.  As soon as the friction is introduced it will slow the ball down thus reducing the distance rolled.  And??? All that proves is that in order to make a putt travel the same distance, one must reduce or increase the force applied depending on the speed of the green. They both have to go the same distance.  At the end the speed will be zero.  the initial velocity will be different because the slower green putt will need to overcome the friction that will slow down the ball so until the two putts reach the point at which they stop, there are likely to be varying differences in their speeds due to the impact of the friction

[Michael Moore]

Pat


When you disagreed with Jon's claim that "greens that have a higher stimp reading mean a ball will be rolling slower to cover the required distance" what do you think he meant by the "required distance"? Do balls rolling off the Stimpmeter have a required distance that they need to travel?

[Bill Brightly]

I'll take another stab at ending this.

Pat, answer this question.

Green A stimps at 12. Green B stimps at 8. A player makes a perfect putt on both greens from 20 feet so that the ball just dies into the center of the cup.

Which putt had the fastest average speed?

[Rob Marshall]

http://www.scienceandmotion.com/minicms/zeigseite.php?filename=sam_highspeed_video&navid=149&lang=en&node=12:149

The ball is in the air at the start of most  putts if not all. I would assume that the initial velocity would be the same then regardless of the stimp reading. This is from the sam lab. Not sure the length of putt.

[Kalen Braley]

I think its become pretty clear from Pats perspective, that he's not interested in addressing the scenario where a struck putt on two different stimping green goes the same distance.
 
He is clearly only interested in talking about hitting a putt with the same initial force on two different stimping greens.....
 
Once again.....this is clearly..
 

[Jon Wiggett]

Pat,

I think you need to read what I wrote. The ball on greens A & B in your example both have their maximum speed at the bottom of the meter. Neither will exceed this speed but rather slow down after this point yet you claim that one magically does.

Put is another way. If you have green A stimping at 12ft and green B stimping at 6 ft on which green will the ball have to travel faster in order to go 12ft? I would say it was the ball on green B. As I have said before your problem is your inability to understand that stimp is a measure of distance not speed.

Jon

[Rob Marshall]

Someone said it best earlier. The ball rolls farther on a 12 stimp than a 6 stimp green it does not roll faster. The starting initial velocity is the same and both putts decelerate from there at at much different rate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Someone said it best earlier. The ball rolls farther on a 12 stimp than a 6 stimp green it does not roll faster. The starting initial velocity is the same and both putts decelerate from there at at much different rate.
 
Rob,
 
I'll make this easier for you.
 
Two greens, right next to each other, only 4 feet apart.
One stimps at 6, the other stimps at 12.
 
At the exact same time the balls are released from the notches.
 
What ball do you think hits the 6 foot mark first, the one on the green stimping at 6 or the one stimping at 12.
 
Take your time, consult others, then, let us know your answer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I think you need to read what I wrote. The ball on greens A & B in your example both have their maximum speed at the bottom of the meter. Neither will exceed this speed but rather slow down after this point yet you claim that one magically does.
 
Yikes, you can't be that obtuse.
The ball on the green stimping at 6 will slow down at a faster rate than the ball on the green stimping at 12, ergo, the ball on the green stimping at 12 is traveling at a higher rate of speed.

Put is another way. If you have green A stimping at 12ft and green B stimping at 6 ft on which green will the ball have to travel faster in order to go 12ft? I would say it was the ball on green B. As I have said before your problem is your inability to understand that stimp is a measure of distance not speed.
 
You're introducing another variable, the force applied to the ball.
 
Stick to fixed factors, not variable.
 
Your problem is that you don't understand the issue.
 
I asked a question that you and everyone else has failed to answer.
 
On a greens stimping at 6 and 12, when two balls are stimped at the same time, which ball is rollilng faster at the 7 foot mark ?
 
The 8, 9, 10 and 11 foot mark ?
 
Why won't you answer this question ?
 
Because it's an admission that balls on higher stimping greens roll faster and you can't bring yourself to admit that.
 
Let's use another example.
 
Let's pretend that no friction exists on green B and green A stimps at 6.
 
Which ball will roll faster over 3 feet, 6 feet, 12 feet, 20 feet ?
 
Again, take your time and don't rush your answer.
 
Ran,
 
Please reinstate the intelligence test for potential participants.


 

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think its become pretty clear from Pats perspective, that he's not interested in addressing the scenario where a struck putt on two different stimping green goes the same distance.

Correct, because different forces are exerted on the ball in order to get them to travel the same distance.
 
That's not the issue.

He is clearly only interested in talking about hitting a putt with the same initial force on two different stimping greens.....

Correct, what took you so long to come to that conclusion. 

Once again.....this is clearly..

Correct again.

[Rob Marshall]

Someone said it best earlier. The ball rolls farther on a 12 stimp than a 6 stimp green it does not roll faster. The starting initial velocity is the same and both putts decelerate from there at at much different rate.
 
Rob,
 
I'll make this easier for you.
 
Two greens, right next to each other, only 4 feet apart.
One stimps at 6, the other stimps at 12.
 
At the exact same time the balls are released from the notches.
 
What ball do you think hits the 6 foot mark first, the one on the green stimping at 6 or the one stimping at 12.
 
Take your time, consult others, then, let us know your answer.

The one on the 12 of course. But it never rolled at any time at a speed that exceeded the top speed of the ball on the 6. It rolled farther but it never rolled at a speed any faster.

Balls on a 12 decelerate from the same initial velocity slower than those on a 6. You didn't know that?

So I answered your questions how about you answer mine.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Someone said it best earlier. The ball rolls farther on a 12 stimp than a 6 stimp green it does not roll faster. The starting initial velocity is the same and both putts decelerate from there at at much different rate.
 
Rob,
 
I'll make this easier for you.
 
Two greens, right next to each other, only 4 feet apart.
One stimps at 6, the other stimps at 12.
 
At the exact same time the balls are released from the notches.
 
What ball do you think hits the 6 foot mark first, the one on the green stimping at 6 or the one stimping at 12.
 
Take your time, consult others, then, let us know your answer.

The one on the 12 of course.
 
Rob, if the ball traveling on the green stimping at 12 gets there first, as you state, and the distance is the exact same on both greens, at 6 feet, that means that the ball rolling on the green stimping at 12 is rolling FASTER than the ball on the green stimping at 6.
 
Let me lend some additional help.
 
If two objects travel the same distance and object "A" gets there before object "B", that means that object "A" is traveling at a higher rate of speed than object "B".
 
That's irrefutable.
 
Ergo, the ball on the green stimping at 12 is rolling faster than the ball rolling on the green stimping at 6.
 
 
But it never rolled at any time at a speed that exceeded the top speed of the ball on the 6.
 
Nice try but it won't work.
Both balls reached their maximum velocity at the bottom of the ramp, but, from that point on until they both stopped, the ball on the green stimping at 12 rolled faster than the ball on the green stimping at 6.
 
That's also irrefutable.
 
It rolled farther but it never rolled at a speed any faster.
 
Of course it did, the ball on the green stimping at 12 ran faster than the ball on the green stimping at 6.
 
The ball on the green stimping at 6 slowed down at a quicker rate than the ball rolling on the green stimping at 12, ergo, the ball on the green stimping at 12 rolled faster than the ball rolling on the green stimping at 6.
 
That's irrefutable.

Balls on a 12 decelerate from the same initial velocity slower than those on a 6.
 
NO, they don't.
The degree of friction impacts ball speed.
The more friction, the more the ball slows down.
And, the green stimping at 6 presents more friction.
 
Let's take it to some extremes.
A green stimping at 3 and a green stimping at 24.
Are you going to tell us that both balls roll at the same speed once they leave the ramp ?
 
If so, you need to go back to school.
 
You didn't know that?
 
No one other than you believes that.

So I answered your questions how about you answer mine.
 
I answered your question.
 
Balls struck with different degrees of force travel at different speeds.
A ball struck with a putter traveling 10 feet per second will travel further than a ball struck with a putter traveling at 5 feet per second.
 
 

[Mark Pavy]

Greens that have a higher stimp reading mean a ball will be rolling SLOWER to cover the required distance
Jon,

That's not true

Pat, you've already confirmed the relative statement, which you argue is not true. You will note that I didn't conveniently exclude critical parts of the statement as you have. Jon included "required distance" to clarify his point that distance travelled was to be a constant.

Would you care to reconsider your disagreement of Jon's statement, including the distance travelled constant?

[Rob Marshall]

Someone said it best earlier. The ball rolls farther on a 12 stimp than a 6 stimp green it does not roll faster. The starting initial velocity is the same and both putts decelerate from there at at much different rate.
 
Rob,
 
I'll make this easier for you.
 
Two greens, right next to each other, only 4 feet apart.
One stimps at 6, the other stimps at 12.
 
At the exact same time the balls are released from the notches.
 
What ball do you think hits the 6 foot mark first, the one on the green stimping at 6 or the one stimping at 12.
 
Take your time, consult others, then, let us know your answer.

The one on the 12 of course.
 
Rob, if the ball traveling on the green stimping at 12 gets there first, as you state, and the distance is the exact same on both greens, at 6 feet, that means that the ball rolling on the green stimping at 12 is rolling FASTER than the ball on the green stimping at 6.
 
Let me lend some additional help.
 
If two objects travel the same distance and object "A" gets there before object "B", that means that object "A" is traveling at a higher rate of speed than object "B".
 
That's irrefutable.
 
Ergo, the ball on the green stimping at 12 is rolling faster than the ball rolling on the green stimping at 6.
 
 
But it never rolled at any time at a speed that exceeded the top speed of the ball on the 6.
 
Nice try but it won't work.
Both balls reached their maximum velocity at the bottom of the ramp, but, from that point on until they both stopped, the ball on the green stimping at 12 rolled faster than the ball on the green stimping at 6.
 
That's also irrefutable.
 
It rolled farther but it never rolled at a speed any faster.
 
Of course it did, the ball on the green stimping at 12 ran faster than the ball on the green stimping at 6.
 
The ball on the green stimping at 6 slowed down at a quicker rate than the ball rolling on the green stimping at 12, ergo, the ball on the green stimping at 12 rolled faster than the ball rolling on the green stimping at 6.
 
That's irrefutable.

Balls on a 12 decelerate from the same initial velocity slower than those on a 6.

NO, they don't.
The degree of friction impacts ball speed.
The more friction, the more the ball slows down.
And, the green stimping at 6 presents more friction.
 
Let's take it to some extremes.
A green stimping at 3 and a green stimping at 24.
Are you going to tell us that both balls roll at the same speed once they leave the ramp ?
 
If so, you need to go back to school.

Pat you need to go back to school. Please read the statement again. I will state it another way so maybe you can comprehend what I said. The 6 will decelerate FASTER than the 12 so as I stated, the 12 will decelerate SLOWER than the 6. I understand friction. You just can't read.

Oh, a ball struck with a putter will have the same initial velocity on either green. I also own a stimp meter. If you think the ball comes off the stimp the same way it comes off a putter you've never used a stimp.

 
You didn't know that?
 
No one other than you believes that.

So I answered your questions how about you answer mine.
 
I answered your question.
 
Balls struck with different degrees of force travel at different speeds.
A ball struck with a putter traveling 10 feet per second will travel further than a ball struck with a putter traveling at 5 feet per second.
 
 

[Bryan Izatt]

Balls roll faster on greens with higher stimp speeds.

Patrick's premises are like his thread titles - half baked.

Now, that's irrefutable!   


The moron's version of Pat's premise is:

A ball released from a properly operated Stimpmeter will roll faster and further on a fast green than a ball properly released from a Stimpmeter on a slow green.

Absolutely true, but of what relevance is it?   

The rest of this is just about Patrick's need to bust people's balls.  Time to move on.

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick's premise is that an ultra marathon runner is faster than Usain Bolt because the marathon runner will still be running long after Mr. Bolt has stopped

 

[Paul Gray]

I've had it. Ran assured us a while ago that people who were prominent on members' ignore lists would be suspended. I resisted for a while as I don't really want to stifle anyone but enough is enough. Pat is now the only occupant on my list. If you want this nonsense to stop, simply do the same. Just go to your personal profile. It's straightforward from there.

[PGertner]

OH MY!!


I went away for a week and cannot believe this is still going.....


I think my namesake needs Intro to Physics....

[Joe Bausch]

OH MY!!

I went away for a week and cannot believe this is still going.....

I think my namesake needs Intro to Physics....

I did not have high enough SAT scores to get into ND so instead I went to Evansville.  And got straight B's in physics.  I wonder if I would have gotten A's in physics at ND.