The case for fast greens

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not long ago I played a course where the greens were very slow.
 
Without being precise, let's say in the 7-8 category.
 
I walked off the course thinking that it would be difficult to three putt any of the greens.
 
Then, I recalled playing a course where the greens were 10+ and how precise my reads, and pace had to be, not to mention executing the proper line.
 
In short, at 10+ on this course, the greens were "singing".
 
And, putting was just one of the challenges they presented.
 
Approach shots and recoveries had to be more carefully thought out...... and executed.
 
I remember one hole, a par 5, where the pin was cut far right and I had slightly mishit my approach, such that it had a little cut on it.  Even though I landed my approach to the left of the hole, the mild slope on the right side of the green, acting as a catalyst, sped my ball on a journey that ended up off the right side of the green by a decent margin.
 
I knew the green was sloped from high left to low right in that section.
I knew to hit my approach to the left of the hole, but, a marginal error led to the de-greening of my ball.
 
Had that green been putting at a 7-8, I would have had a birdie putt of no more than 10 feet.
 
On other holes, I had to navigate ridges with precision if my approach/recovery didn't end up on the hole side of the ridge.
 
Again, with greens at 7-8 this would have presented no problem, but, at 10+ it was a wonderful challenge.
 
I had to get the line and the pace just right, otherwise the ridge would deflect my ball into three putt range.
 
We complain about the need for speed, but, on greens intended for or capable of accomodating speeds of 10+, why wouldn't you want that challenge at the green end ?
 
Let's ignore cost for this exercise.
 
The insidious nature of greens at speed is really, really neat.
 
Understanding Arthur Weber's treatise on reasonable green speeds, why wouldn't you want fast greens ?

[Ben Malach]

It is true that green speed can make the most placid of greens interesting. But the speed of the green should entirely depend on the contour present. If one has a wonderful set of rolling undulating greens with lots of interest. I see no need for green speed to be increased to add interest to the putting.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Recently returning to an old Donald Ross course that I grew up playing,  the greens were the fastest I've ever seen them. So much of the subtle breaks that I learned over the past 25 years became much more pronounced with speed. The greens have always been difficult but with the additional speed they added a tremendous challenge that was both frustrating and enjoyable.


Each green gets to a point where they have become too fast, but they always seem to play the best when they are just shy of that point. It's then that you really have to consider the slope of the green when planning your approach. Although, the more interesting and contoured the green the slower it can be and still keep a players interest.

[Zack Molnar]

I dont think many people would have a problem with greens rolling at 10-11 as a general speed. I think its when they get to 12.5+ that the issues present themselves. But again, it is all dependent upon the green characteristics of the course. 12 may be benign on mundane greens, and impossible on others with more contour.

[Josh Stevens]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that slow means easy?

Mine are normally about 10-11 but after recent coring there were still a bit shaggy and probably running 8. I had more 3 putts then I have had in years - simply could not get the ball to the hole.  After years of playing on slicks I had become attuned to just caressing the ball.  The notion of giving it a real hit was too foreign for me to overcome.

[Jon Wiggett]

Greens that have a higher stimp reading mean a ball will be rolling SLOWER to cover the required distance and a slower rolling ball is more likely to drop therefore easier to hole. A higher stimping green also needs to be flatter as shown by the numerous examples of greens being flattened to 'cope with modern green speeds'. Flatter greens are easier to read and have straighter putts which are simpler to hole.

It is a simple truth that 99% of golfers seem to miss, for good putters higher stimping greens are easier to play on but for poorer putters harder.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that slow means easy?

From playing golf for about 65 years

Mine are normally about 10-11 but after recent coring there were still a bit shaggy and probably running 8. I had more 3 putts then I have had in years - simply could not get the ball to the hole.


That's because you failed to adjust during the course of the round, which you would do quite easily if they were kept at 8


[size=78%]After years of playing on slicks I had become attuned to just caressing the ball.  The notion of giving it a real hit was too foreign for me to overcome.[/size]
[/size]
[/size]Then you suffer from LOFT.[size=78%][/font]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greens that have a higher stimp reading mean a ball will be rolling SLOWER to cover the required distance and a slower rolling ball is more likely to drop therefore easier to hole. A higher stimping green also needs to be flatter as shown by the numerous examples of greens being flattened to 'cope with modern green speeds'. Flatter greens are easier to read and have straighter putts which are simpler to hole.

Jon,

That's not true

As to your claim of easier to hole, have you ever played in a medal play competition with greens rolling at 12 ?

On greens with contour and slope ?

It is a simple truth that 99% of golfers seem to miss, for good putters higher stimping greens are easier to play on but for poorer putters harder.

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

What is not true Patrick and what is your basis for that view point?

[Patrick_Mucci]

What is not true Patrick


That balls roll slower on higher stimping greens


and what is your basis for that view point?


The STIMPMETER which proves that the ball rolls faster on higher stimping greens.

Now answer my question.

Have you ever played in a medal play competition with the greens stimping at 12 ?

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of points to add -


Quicker greens normally mean less puttable pin positions.


The quicker the green the truer needs to be the surface.



The quicker the green the more effect the wind has on a putt.


Atb

[Rob Marshall]

What is not true Patrick


That balls roll slower on higher stimping greens


and what is your basis for that view point?


The STIMPMETER which proves that the ball rolls faster on higher stimping greens.

Now answer my question.

Have you ever played in a medal play competition with the greens stimping at 12 ?

Faster greens break more because they are on the ground longer. They are on the ground longer because they are rolling slower. Jon is right.

A 20 foot putt that finishes 2 feet past the hole. On a green that stimps at 12 I bet the ball is rolling at a slower speed as it passes the cup that a putt on a green stimping 8. The putt on the 12 would then theoretically have a better chance of catching the edge and falling in.

I've played greens that were 12+ in metal competition. It's nerve racking. Especially on longer lag putts.

[Joe Bausch]

I guess Pat has never watched Morning Drive to hear Charlie Rymer go into what is almost a George Carlin routine when he deadpans:


"How come when a green is fast, the ball rolls slow... but when the green is slow, the ball rolls fast?!"


 

[jeffwarne]

On a fast green,(on a good putt) the ball rolls more slowly than it does on a slow green.


You'd have to be a MORON not to know that

[Rob Marshall]

Could Pat be part Moron?

[Patrick_Mucci]

On a fast green,(on a good putt) the ball rolls more slowly than it does on a slow green.


You'd have to be a MORON not to know that.

Jeff,

I never thought that I'd have to elevate you to colossal moron status, but alas, your time has come.

Ask yourself this question:

On a green stimping at 12 and a green stimping at 6, we know the ball comes off the Stimp at exactly the same speed.

So tell us, at the 3 foot, 6 foot, 9 foot and 11'11" mark, which ball is rolling faster ?

As to your foolish attempt to qualify your answer/position by inserting the words, "on a good putt", I consider a "good putt" one that goes IN, so speed is irrelevant.

According to Peltz, all putts should go about 18" past the hole.

Let me know who is such a great putter that every one of their putts just gets past the front lip.

As Yogi said, "96 % of the putts I hit short, don't go in."

[Rob Marshall]

If two putts go the same length on a green with a speed of 8 and one on a green running 12, the putt on the 12 rolls at a slower speed. It's simple physics. Don't be a moron. The reason a  putt breaks more on a faster green is because it takes longer getting to the hole because it is rolling slower.

[Mark Pavy]

On a fast green,(on a good putt) the ball rolls more slowly than it does on a slow green.


You'd have to be a MORON not to know that.

Jeff,

I never thought that I'd have to elevate you to colossal moron status, but alas, your time has come.

Ask yourself this question:

On a green stimping at 12 and a green stimping at 6, we know the ball comes off the Stimp at exactly the same speed.

So tell us, at the 3 foot, 6 foot, 9 foot and 11'11" mark, which ball is rolling faster ?

As to your foolish attempt to qualify your answer/position by inserting the words, "on a good putt", I consider a "good putt" one that goes IN, so speed is irrelevant.

According to Peltz, all putts should go about 18" past the hole.

Let me know who is such a great putter that every one of their putts just gets past the front lip.

As Yogi said, "96 % of the putts I hit short, don't go in."

......and there it is.........you'd have to be a moron not to see that distorted reply coming.

Please do let us know how you go putting with your stimpmeter!

[Paul Gray]

Another wonderful example of Pat being on the previous page but convinced he's found a clever way of reshaping the argument. It really doesn't fool anyone, Pat.

Go and roll a ball twenty foot (and only twenty foot) on concrete. Then go and do the same thing on long, thick grass. Then tell me which one finishes its journey quickest. It's a very simple matter of friction.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark & Rob,

Your reading comprehension skills are lacking, to be polite, why don't you retread what I typed instead of interpreting it as you'd like.

It's quite simple, balls roll faster on greens with higher stimp speeds.  That's irrefutable, even for morons such as yourselves

[Rob Marshall]

Pat for the 3rd and final time. A putt that rolls 20 feet on a green that stimps at 12 takes longer to stop at the 20 ft mark than does a putt that rolls the same distance on a green that stimps at 8. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

[Bob Montle]

For what it's worth, the toughest greens I have ever putted were at Machrihanish this past May. 
They were very slow, and combined with the extreme humps and bumps, I three putted about half the holes.

Usually I was way short but when I hit the ball hard enough it would run right over the cup instead of falling.

I loved the challenge!

[Ben Sims]

Pat,

You're being obtuse. Stick to insurance man!

At the bottom of a stimp, no matter the green speed, all balls roll the same speed. After that, it's all friction.  Therefore, for putts of the same length, a putt struck on a green with less friction will roll slower and stop slower. A putt struck on a green with more friction will roll faster and stop faster. This is fact. It's physics. It's not subjective or a matter of opinion.

[jeffwarne]

For a ball to run 20 feet on a green stimping 6, it would have to be rolling significantly faster at the 3,6,9,12,15 foot mark
than...
a ball rolling 20 feet on a green stimping at 12.


Surely you agree with that Pat

[Bob Montle]

Pat, here's another way of looking at it.

If you have an eight foot putt on a fast green, and an eight foot putt on a slow green, which one will you hit harder?
And which one will therefore have a HIGHER initial velocity? 

If both putts go the same distance their final velocity will both be zero.

Hence, the ball with the higher average velocity will be the one with a higher initial velocity which will be the one struck harder which will be the one on the SLOW green.