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Paul Gray

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Bunkers In Front of Greens
« on: September 26, 2015, 07:58:49 AM »
Conventional wisdom has it that bunkers in front of greens, at least on courses intended to play firm and fast, are a no-no. The idea is that any such bunker will discourage the ground game and is therefore a non-starter. There are exceptions but they are pretty rare and very unlikely to meet the front of the green.


But wait. In the days of hickory shafts, players were often asked to carry a bunker in order to find a green. Those old cops bunkers weren't all bad. Or if they weren't asked to carry that bunker, they were required to play their way around it. John Low may have been over egging it a bit when he suggested that any hole was automatically bad if the best place to be was in the middle of the fairway but if we truly want to promote the notion that width and angles are integral to good architecture, forcing places to make left/right choices from the tee, what would be so wrong about a small, lone bunker, or mound perhaps, in front of a green? There is surely no better way to get a player thinking.


Discuss.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 08:31:02 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Bob Montle

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Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2015, 01:03:59 PM »
I'm thinking of a course with mounds and bunkers in front of the greens.
It is known as a running course and is very highly rated.
The one over in St. Andrews...
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2015, 08:06:52 PM »
In many ways, it boils down to variety (as the Old Course shows us, and Bob points out above). If you want ultimate variety, every green shouldn't, or at least doesn't, need to be "open" in front.


Here's a look at the green at the par 4 13th hole at the new Derrick Club, in Edmonton, Alberta, following a really good drive that carries down wind and catches a significant downslope in the fairway ..





jeffmingay.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2015, 08:28:20 PM »
Paul,

I'd be curious to know if you've found that the exception tends to be with par 3's

Scott McWethy

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Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2015, 10:00:41 PM »
Paul,

I'd be curious to know if you've found that the exception tends to be with par 3's

Patrick, it sounds like you were in California recently.  Did you have a chance to play up north at The Olympic Club.  If my memory is correct, those par threes on the Lake Course are heavily fronted by some massive bunkers.  A little bit too redundant for me.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2015, 08:37:35 AM »
I'm thinking of a course with mounds and bunkers in front of the greens.
It is known as a running course and is very highly rated.
The one over in St. Andrews...

Exactly. And yet it is all too frequently assumed to be wrong.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2015, 11:23:52 AM »
"If my memory is correct, those par threes on the Lake Course are heavily fronted by some massive bunkers."

Scott M. -

3 of the 4 par-3's on the Lake used to be fronted by large bunkers. With the change to the 8th hole, only 2 of the par-3's (#13 & #15) are now fronted by bunkers.

DT

Scott McWethy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2015, 04:57:50 PM »
"If my memory is correct, those par threes on the Lake Course are heavily fronted by some massive bunkers."

Scott M. -

3 of the 4 par-3's on the Lake used to be fronted by large bunkers. With the change to the 8th hole, only 2 of the par-3's (#13 & #15) are now fronted by bunkers.


DT


Scott McWethy

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Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2015, 05:00:57 PM »
"If my memory is correct, those par threes on the Lake Course are heavily fronted by some massive bunkers."

Scott M. -

3 of the 4 par-3's on the Lake used to be fronted by large bunkers. With the change to the 8th hole, only 2 of the par-3's (#13 & #15) are now fronted by bunkers.


DT

Thanks for the correction David.  What about Los Angeles CC North course bunkers on the par threes?  I remember a decent amount of holes out there where the green were fronted by bunkers, but can't remember if all the par threes are.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2015, 06:27:49 PM »
Pine Tree is loaded with holes that have a bunker in front. 3 of 4 par 3's and generally speaking, 12-13 holes where a bunker much be carried to arrive on the putting surface.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2015, 06:36:47 PM »
With respect gents, are we talking about holes where the player is made to think from the tee how best to create an angle to run the ball passed front hazards or are we simply talking about carrying the ball and stopping it?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2015, 08:32:39 PM »
Paul,

I'd be curious to know if you've found that the exception tends to be with par 3's

Patrick, it sounds like you were in California recently.
 
I was. 
 
Did you have a chance to play up north at The Olympic Club. 
 
Unfortunately, no.
 
If my memory is correct, those par threes on the Lake Course are heavily fronted by some massive bunkers.  A little bit too redundant for me.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 08:34:47 PM »

Pine Tree is loaded with holes that have a bunker in front. 3 of 4 par 3's and generally speaking, 12-13 holes where a bunker much be carried to arrive on the putting surface.
 
Tony,
 
Airborne all the way, with a few narrow exceptions.
 
Pine Tree emphasizes great iron play and if you falter, great bunker play.


Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2015, 09:19:31 AM »
A great example is the 2nd at Ballyhack- IMO one of the best par 5s in the world.  Lester defended this terrific green with an evil small bunker front and center.  The fairway is a football field wide with multiple driving options- so you can pick the best spot to try and bounce your 2nd around the bunker onto the correct side of the green. Very tempting after a smashing tee shot but the up and down from the bunker is nasty.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2015, 03:22:07 PM »
"If my memory is correct, those par threes on the Lake Course are heavily fronted by some massive bunkers."

Scott M. -

3 of the 4 par-3's on the Lake used to be fronted by large bunkers. With the change to the 8th hole, only 2 of the par-3's (#13 & #15) are now fronted by bunkers.


DT

Thanks for the correction David.  What about Los Angeles CC North course bunkers on the par threes?  I remember a decent amount of holes out there where the green were fronted by bunkers, but can't remember if all the par threes are.


LACC-N does have a lot of fronting bunkers, but at the same time allows for run-up shots to at least a portion of most greens. You can bounce it in to the par 3 7th and 11th although you have to carry hazards 30-40 yards short of the green front for both. For the par 3 4th and 15th it is a full carry to the green.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2015, 03:56:34 PM »
"If my memory is correct, those par threes on the Lake Course are heavily fronted by some massive bunkers."

Scott M. -

3 of the 4 par-3's on the Lake used to be fronted by large bunkers. With the change to the 8th hole, only 2 of the par-3's (#13 & #15) are now fronted by bunkers.


DT

Thanks for the correction David.  What about Los Angeles CC North course bunkers on the par threes?  I remember a decent amount of holes out there where the green were fronted by bunkers, but can't remember if all the par threes are.


LACC-N does have a lot of fronting bunkers, but at the same time allows for run-up shots to at least a portion of most greens. You can bounce it in to the par 3 7th and 11th although you have to carry hazards 30-40 yards short of the green front for both. For the par 3 4th and 15th it is a full carry to the green.


Alex,


This is really the key IMO.  We have several holes at Kingsley like this (3,7 & 13).  This gives the best of both worlds, i.e. a way for punters to play around the trouble and for sticks to play aggressively at certain flags.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2015, 04:23:09 PM »
 ;D


Paul that John Low line  is so good !  Just love it .




If you want to go at the green , get the damn angle,

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers In Front of Greens
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2015, 05:20:22 PM »
Paul,

I'd be curious to know if you've found that the exception tends to be with par 3's

Patrick, it sounds like you were in California recently.  Did you have a chance to play up north at The Olympic Club.  If my memory is correct, those par threes on the Lake Course are heavily fronted by some massive bunkers.  A little bit too redundant for me.


I always loved those massive bunkers
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta