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Tim_Cronin

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #175 on: January 12, 2018, 07:57:50 PM »
Paul,


We get it.


Thanks,


Pat


Exactly.
No one reads posts that long. Cutting and pasting articles is lazy. State your position and debate/defend from there.


Otherwise, "go home and get your shine box..."


I prefer what Paul's doing for two reasons. One, we don't have to go looking for the original documents and/or arguments. Two, it will make for a good resource in the future.


Keep at it, Paul.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Buck Wolter

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #176 on: January 12, 2018, 10:10:31 PM »


I lived in Eastern Europe for a while and this thing has nothing on Soviet Era Monuments.


Really? 


I can't see the barbed wire of the gulags and reeducation camps but that Obama is a sneaky one so perhaps they are camoflauged with techniques superior to even Dr. Mackenzie.


I'm starting to understand some of the reasons for the opposition, methinks.


Chill out -- I was making comment on the architecture of the building. If someone wants to defend that thing go ahead.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

John McCarthy

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #177 on: January 13, 2018, 06:58:43 AM »
Paul:


Preservation Chicago was front and center in the effort to save the old Prentice Women's  Hospital, a building of singular sinister design where the the designer seemed to believe the Panoptican prison design somehow translated into a maternity hospital.  Then taking cues from post war Dresden for outdoor ornamentation.  They were fools then and their compass heading has not changed.


The site has been a golf course for a long time.  A bad one.  With a little effort we can change it and solve many problems.  Turning the site into Olmstead's plan does no one any good.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Jim Nugent

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #178 on: January 13, 2018, 09:30:52 AM »
Paul:


Preservation Chicago was front and center in the effort to save the old Prentice Women's  Hospital, a building of singular sinister design where the the designer seemed to believe the Panoptican prison design somehow translated into a maternity hospital.  Then taking cues from post war Dresden for outdoor ornamentation.  They were fools then and their compass heading has not changed.


The site has been a golf course for a long time.  A bad one.  With a little effort we can change it and solve many problems.  Turning the site into Olmstead's plan does no one any good.

I read recently that one of the underpasses needed to reroute traffic will cost $25 million.  They need to build a second underpass as well, plus do extensive shoreline reinforcements. 

So "a little effort" sounds like at least $50 million of public money, and maybe a lot more.  Cost overruns could easily drive that number higher.  In a way, that's already happening: until a few months ago the $25 million underpass was going to cost around $11 million.  i.e. costs are already spiraling, and the project hasn't left the design page. 

btw your first paragraph is a class example of ad hominem argument. 





 

John McCarthy

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #179 on: January 13, 2018, 10:29:30 AM »
Jim:. The city, state and federal government spent 31.5 million to expand Lincoln Park by less than six acres at the end of Fullerton Avenue.  No one is paying to use the land.


https://chicagoconstructionnews.com/31-5-million-fullerton-ave-beach-park-project-adding-5-8-acres-of-new-land/


This is an opportunity to create an unique asset.  The price is dear.  In my eyes it is worth it. 

The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Jason Way

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #180 on: January 26, 2018, 01:28:06 PM »
For those interested in hearing about plans, Beau Welling will be at another public meeting on January 31st at 6:00pm at the Chicago Cultural Center.


https://twitter.com/ChiGolfAlliance/status/956947322478370816
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jeff Schley

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #181 on: January 26, 2018, 01:45:36 PM »
I'm interested to see what finally ends up being built and the price tag.  This is Illinois and Chicago at that so start at 2x's the estimate and work up from there since they will always use union labor and have "unforeseen complexities" which will push it higher IMO.  After all I think 4 of the last 7 governors have been to prison for a reason.  The Daley family had so much control over the city I'm sure much of what they did would have been illegal had auditing been done.  Oh well, such is politics in the windy city.

Obama is and will be a major push in this project and with his presidential library going to be built on the South Side this golf course by TW will be great.  Don't expect it on budget for an almost bankrupt city/state, I just hope it turns out great for the South Side needs revitalization and the youth programs that are envisioned there would be a great option for youth needing them.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Terry Lavin

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #182 on: January 26, 2018, 06:35:49 PM »
The Daley family had so much control over the city I'm sure much of what they did would have been illegal had auditing been done.  Oh well, such is politics in the windy city.

Obama is and will be a major push in this project and with his presidential library going to be built on the South Side this golf course by TW will be great.


Hard to reconcile the slander of the first assault with the hopeful community sentiment of the other quote.


But maybe you’re a Gemini.🤒. I am, so I’ll take it in that spirit of psychic duality.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 09:10:40 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #183 on: January 27, 2018, 01:31:53 AM »
The Daley family had so much control over the city I'm sure much of what they did would have been illegal had auditing been done.  Oh well, such is politics in the windy city.

Obama is and will be a major push in this project and with his presidential library going to be built on the South Side this golf course by TW will be great.


Hard to reconcile the slander of the first assault with the hopeful community sentiment of the other quote.


But maybe you’re a Gemini.🤒. I am, so I’ll take it in that spirit of psychic duality.

Terry, my friend, I'm from Chicago.  Just about everyone in my family still lives in the Chicago area. My Grandfather and Godfather (not Marlon Brando) were friends of the Daley family and I have met him. My Great Grandfather was a bootlegger and an outfit guy by all accounts, which wasn't uncommon back then.

I don't arrive at my opinions on Chicago casually, thus if we are to have a conversation it has to be based in reality. I believe you are from the Chicago as well, thus politics aside if I'm talking to a fellow Chicagoan I shouldn't have to go through a list of controversial topics the Daley's have done which were suspect.  I actually like him and respect him, just realize he will do whatever it takes to get it done.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing for a Mayor of Chicago with all the bureaucracy.  Let's at least acknowledge the city can get things done and cut through the bureaucracy when wanting to get something done (aka Meigs Field).

Also I won't worry about the passive aggressive hit and run comment thinking I'm being disingenuous about wanting good things for the City of Chicago. It is where I go each time I'm in the states to see my family.

I'll leave it at that.  Good to be here.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

SL_Solow

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #184 on: January 27, 2018, 07:53:32 AM »
Jeff,  you know, of course, that Richard Daley is not the Mayor of Chicago.  Accordingly, whatever he or his father (deceased) might or might not do has little relevance.  There are numerous practical difficulties involved with the project largely relating to raising the private funds and dealing with traffic issues..  As noted, various factions in the community have different interests and ideas.  Don't expect all of the negotiations to be played out in the press.  Give this some time.  It is by no means a done deal, neither is it dead.

Jeff Schley

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #185 on: January 27, 2018, 11:22:26 AM »
Jeff,  you know, of course, that Richard Daley is not the Mayor of Chicago.  Accordingly, whatever he or his father (deceased) might or might not do has little relevance.  There are numerous practical difficulties involved with the project largely relating to raising the private funds and dealing with traffic issues..  As noted, various factions in the community have different interests and ideas.  Don't expect all of the negotiations to be played out in the press.  Give this some time.  It is by no means a done deal, neither is it dead.

SL, great to talk with you as well. Unfortunately, much of what Richard M. Daley did lives on today and is of much relevance.  How about the 75 year lease of the city's parking meters for about $1.1 billion, for what some are saying could have been 2x's to as much as 10x's that.  Or the Chicago Skyway 99 year lease in 2005 for $1.8 billion, that was resold just last year I believe from the financial consortium that purchased it to a Canadian pension fund for $2.8 billion for the remaining 90 years or so. Thank God Rahm Emanuel didn't allow the privatization of Midway airport, which Daley also tried to push through.

I have no problem with privatization, however the City of Chicago has been in dire straits financially for almost 20 years. They have been classified by the rating agencies as Junk Bond Status.  That means you pay more interest, like loan shark interest, for your bonds.  Why is it junk?  The cash flow streams have been sold off for large lump sum payments, which have been used to plug gaps in operating deficits, particularly the Daley years. The parking meter money I think is gone, the skyway money I believe has maybe 1/3 left.  This was supposed to be a piggy bank that when invested in a diversified portfolio of index funds would return cash flow for the next 75-99 years.  However it is mostly gone, and with it the cash flow it could have brought, as a result the city's cash flow is severely hampered and Junk status remains.

I saw the city got creative and got a AAA rated bonds just 2 months ago, backed by the State of Illinois sales tax revenue it receives, thus not using it's own credit rating. If the city goes into bankruptcy who knows where these creditors will fall however.

When politicians are able to make long term commitments, in this case lifetime commitments of even newborns you are mortgaging your future, for the politician wants to take care of the right now, regardless of what the future consequences maybe.  The above deals are examples of that, in that they didn't get enough money in the parking meter deal nor did they add sufficient language in those deals to manage their risks (allowing increasing parking charges/tolls, paying for parking spaces not in service due to road closure, etc.).

So there is some Daley consequence that will live on for quite some time unfortunately.  Also, I want to add that although critical of some of the deals made, I actually like the strong leadership of Daley and to a much lesser extent Emanuel.  To be the Mayor of Chicago you can't be meek.

This project for the golf courses I'm in full support of as long as there are protections and language in place to assure children can play for free, city residents pay rates equal to rates now with inflation adjusted increases only, and there is a very large First Tee/WGA youth program.  I don't want this course to be a high daily fee course that moonlights as being utilized by the residents/children of the City of Chicago.  I want it to be utilized by the City of Chicago residents/children that moonlights as a championship course for a couple weeks a year hosting whatever Western Open they can bring.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jason Way

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #186 on: January 31, 2018, 07:54:07 PM »
New article reveals the updated design which is being presented tonight to the public, I believe:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/2018/01/31/exclusive-tgr-design-unveils-new-routing-chicago-course-design/

I think that we have had a healthy helping of analysis of this project from public works and political perspectives.  That is all relevant, but frankly for me, that horse has been beat to death on this thread.  Some people in Chicago really want this to happen.  Others really don't.  It is going to happen or it isn't.

What interests me at this point from this crowd is, what do you think of the design (this being a golf course architecture site and all)?  The article references a modified aesthetic, and 100 routing iterations.  Do they have it right at this point?  If not, why not?
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Tom_Doak

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #187 on: January 31, 2018, 09:29:13 PM »
Interesting that golf.com / GOLF Magazine is the official outlet for the release of the plan, ahead of what the residents get to see.  I wonder how that came about?


Having 650-yard holes for the 1st and 18th is an odd choice, but these are odd-sized parcels with lots of road crossings, so it's harder to pick and choose the lengths you want if you are trying for max yardage.


Nice to see that their plan is for kids to play for free.  When I was there 3 years ago, there were kids out playing the course, and I wondered whether they would be gentrified out of the picture to make a new high-end course.  But now I kind of wonder how the numbers are going to add up on building and operating the course.

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #188 on: February 01, 2018, 01:17:34 AM »
I think Golf Magazine was just the first to turn around the release that was sent out this afternoon. I received it at 3:54 p.m. but was on the way to the 5:30 p.m. presser at South Shore CC (in advance of the public reveal a bit after 6 p.m.) by then.


Mike Kelly, the Chicago Park District super, now puts the total tab at $60 million, split evenly between the course (of which $24 million must be raised privately) and the infrastructure, including two underpasses, one of which is needed for safer public lakefront access even without the golf.


Kids 17 and under play for free throughout the park district courses now and that will continue. Kelly said the rate for residents will be under $50. Others get soaked to make up for it.


If there's a tournament there, the final four holes (15-17 along the lakefront) play as a 3-5-3-5 combination. It's 3-4-3-5 for regular players because the drive on the 16th would be over a beach and look pretty on TV. It's a better routing than last time if only because the last four holes don't have OB left. The redo also allows for nine-hole play.


Full story at www.illinoisgolfer.net - analysis in the coming days in the first digital issue of the year.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

PCCraig

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #189 on: February 01, 2018, 09:46:20 AM »
When reports of a possibility of a redesign of Jackson Park/South Shore first came out, I was pretty excited by the possibilities. But the more this drags on the more I think it's becoming a huge waste. Now, it's become a $60mln project that is designed to "host a tournament." $60mln so the PGA Tour can host the BMW/Western Open every other year?


If Mike Kaiser and friends really wanted to give back to the game, they would raise about $5mln and give the Jackson Park project to one architect, and the South Shore project to another and have them revitalize each course in the same vein as Sweetness Cove or the Winter Park 9. That would do more for the game of golf than spending $60 (or likely far more) just so in ten years they can have a shot of some PGA Tour pro hitting a tee shot over the South Shore beach.
H.P.S.

Paul OConnor

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #190 on: February 01, 2018, 11:25:55 AM »
 The latest proposal illustrates the extent of the shoreline lake-fill anticipated for this project.  If it was $31.5 mil for the 6 acres at Fullerton, expect 2-3 times that much fill required at South Shore, depending on which “scenario” you pick.  Since the Park District has declined to release the publicly funded SmithGroupJJR engineering study, we can only guess as to what other issues exist.   So add another $60-100 mil for shoreline stabilization to the $60 mil for golf course and underpass construction. 
 
This new plan also calls for the construction of a new clubhouse and parking lot on Jeffery just south of Marquette Drive, so add another $5-10 mil for that. 
 
Also added in this new plan is a “Special Event Driveway” for an exit from South Shore to 71st Street, to help complicate an already complex 71st Street – Yates Blvd. – South Shore Drive – Exchange Ave – Metra South Shore Electric train - South Shore Cultural Center exit intersection.  Pick any number, probably $2-3 mil for that. 
 
So, let’s see…
 
$80 mil + $60 mil + $10 mil + $3 mil = $153 mil 
 
This golf course idea just keeps getting better. 
 
 

Paul OConnor

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #191 on: February 01, 2018, 12:42:50 PM »
Here's the new layout.  Significant changes include relocation of the first hole, addition of a significant pond circled by the 4-5-6th holes, addition of a new clubhouse, preservation of part of the existing nature sanctuary, addition of walking/biking paths through the middle of the South Shore side of the course, and another path through the Jackson Park side which would follow the path of existing Marquette Drive.



Alex Miller

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #192 on: February 01, 2018, 01:09:20 PM »

If there's a tournament there, the final four holes (15-17 along the lakefront) play as a 3-5-3-5 combination. It's 3-4-3-5 for regular players because the drive on the 16th would be over a beach and look pretty on TV.


Really? The drive on 16 looks like a tough one for sure, but on the drawing it doesn't appear long enough to make a par 5 for the pros.

Paul OConnor

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #193 on: February 01, 2018, 01:30:08 PM »
The "pro" tee on 16 is east of the beach over by the 15th green.  The beach goers will have the "honor" of having elite PGA pros hit drives over their peasant heads.     

Jeff Schley

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #194 on: February 01, 2018, 02:55:33 PM »
The cost will start at 2x's the estimate as I thought and go up.  Private funds should be used for the course IMO certainly and my idea is to sell naming rights.  This hasn't been done to my knowledge previously in the country (edit I just found the TPC-San Antonio course which got AT&T).  Why not tap all avenues as Chicago loves to privatize and give away assets, this would be no big deal as they are only giving away the name and keeping the operation and revenue.  They have resisted giving away the Soldier Field name to a corporate sponsor, but for this project to even get started we have to fill some gaps.

United Airlines just sponsored the Memorial Coliseum in Los Angeles for $69 million for 16 years and certainly more valuable advertising for an iconic stadium then a renovated public city owned golf course.  What do you guys feel about this possibility, and if so what could they get?  I love the idea of an iconic Chicago company dishing out some $ for sponsorship like UA or McDonalds or Sears (wait they won't be around by the time it opens  ;D ).
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #195 on: February 01, 2018, 06:29:50 PM »
I guess the whiners and bile spewing contrarians have a good chance of preserving these two very mundane golf courses. I guess there’s some community good in having really cheap, underutilized property used in this way.


I don’t know about the threat of gentrification that would move the less fortunate from their homes. I guess there’s a possibility of that.


But I see very little possibility of improvement coming from the malcontents. Those trying to champion this project have pledged to raise $35 million in private money IIRC. This would subsidize local golfers and a caddie program.


Will the ultimate cost be more?  Sure. Just like every private club project.


I have no stake in this. But it rankles me to listen to the haughty naysayers who imply corruption and community destruction. I do know this: those driving this project are not animated by any greed or animus. Mike Keiser played Jackson Park for years and kept thinking about potential. He recruited other civic minded benefactors.


If it fails it can always move to Harborside. Unless the Friends of the Former Industrial Wasteland object.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 07:16:11 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tom_Doak

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Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #197 on: February 01, 2018, 07:56:10 PM »
Terry:  I'm 100% in favor of the idea of raising money to attract young people from the area to Jackson Park to play golf.  My comment about gentrification was only meant in terms of green fees, not real estate.  (I did not know that kids play for free now - that's awesome.  The commissioner made it sound like a new thing.)


I do wonder how that goal is best served by a $60 million course designed to host a PGA Tour event.  That part smells very much like somebody's ego at stake.  I don't think it's Mike Keiser's, and I doubt Tiger Woods' ego needs boosting, either.  But, I honestly don't understand any of the numbers being thrown around in the golf business for renovations these days.  What did you spend renovating Beverly?  For $60 mil they could rebuild every course in the Park District from scratch, if it wasn't for government work markups.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #198 on: February 01, 2018, 08:15:30 PM »
Tom,


I appreciate your input. Of course it would be better to fix up all of the Park District courses with this kind of cash. But that wouldn’t get a nickel in private money and it wouldn’t have the impact that development on these sites would have. Not to mention the other benefits that would inure to the community from the fee discounts and the caddie program for kids who have no jobs and no way to pay for college.


 “Make no little plans” is an old Daniel Burnham slogan invoked when the city had to rebuild. That phrase seems appropriate now, too. Just because things have been sideways lately doesn’t mean we should give up. The Obama library is a good “hook” here.


Even if some would “fade” the project.  🤔
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 08:41:32 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Plan Would Bring Championship Public Golf Course to Chicago's South Side
« Reply #199 on: February 02, 2018, 10:08:43 AM »
The latest articles talk about keeping prices under $50 for locals.  That's still double or more what they pay now.  Hard for me to believe that will not greatly cut into local play.  IMO they need to hold the green fee for locals where it is now, around $20 to $25 as I understand it. 

I like Jeff Schley's idea about naming rights.

You guys who favor the project:  you're ok with spending many tens of millions of public dollars, and maybe $150 million or more, to build this course? 

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