[Andy Johnson]

Well I figured it out,


The biggest obstacle is routing. The South Shore property will likely only be about 5 holes of the 18. Ideally for championship golf and a finish they would end on the lake and at the South Shore clubhouse. For this routing the starter would likely be a cool opener that heads out north along the lake and towards the skyline





From there the connector would happen at this corners of the property, here's map that shows it.





After running around Jackson Park, photos for another day, the course would come back to South Shore for the close and some beautful vistas. The hole that brings the course back to the lake would likely be a long par 4 that runs down the South side of the property. I would love to see an infinity green here that seemingly floats over the lake














Then the next hole would likely be a long par 3 along the lake after the trees along the shore are cleared. This would leave an absolutely stunning look at the Chicago Skyline from the green.











From there they could move to an unbelievable finisher, a cape hole that plays over the beach and Lake Michigan, from the back tee the carry could be 260 yards, but as you move up there could be no forced carry on the shot. This would also run alongside the historic South Shore clubhouse.






















As I have stated previously, there are going to be a lot of haters towards the project but in the end its going to be really hard to screw it up. The views combined with the general public allure of Tiger Woods are going to make this place jammed from sun up to sundown for at least the first 5 years of being open.

[Tim_Cronin]

Andy,
It's Chicago. It could be pretty easy to screw up.
For instance, what about that dog and the (presumed) dog walker in your last shot. Where do they go? And that beach you picture is public. Where does the beach crowd go? And the connection can't be expanded without approval from the Army Corps of Engineers and the Great Lakes Compact.
It doesn't matter if Woods or his employees come up with the next Augusta National. Friends of the Parks will be all over this.
Tim

[Jim Nugent]

Tim, I still wonder where the current golfers -- who pay $20 or $30 a round -- will go, after their green fees double or more? 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Tim, I still wonder where the current golfers -- who pay $20 or $30 a round -- will go, after their green fees double or more?

Like the rework done at Harding Park in SF, there will be a "residents' rate" I would imagine when/if the new course opens. Hopefully it will be under $50, but the point is still valid. The market for golfers in the city of Chicago between the ages of 22 and 60 who seek a daily fee venue is substantial. Today, you need to travel by car for at least 20-30 minutes but more likely 45 minutes to find a quality public course.


The 36 holes at Harborside (20 mins from city) are fun and the tee sheet is always busy and rates have creeped to near $100 now in prime time, although I admit I have not played there in almost 10 years. Retail golfers can go 20-30 mins and play some good munis but you need 45 mins to play a better course. The proposed new course will really impact the local players who have been there for years and are predominantly African American.


On the north side, right on the lake, lies "Waveland" - a nine-hole institution between Belmont and Montrose harbors. Its holes each emulate a classic hole from the more celebrated courses in the area. But south side residents do not travel to north side if they can help it....:-)

[Drew Groeger]

Andy,
Regarding your routing wishes for a spectacular finish on the lake, the Teddy Greenspan article from December 16th noted "An initial routing plan obtained by the Tribune has the No. 1 tee box at Jackson Park, not far from the planned $500 million Barack Obama Presidential Center" which is about as far away from the lake as you can get on this property (far upper left of the map you posted). This would mean those lakefront holes would come in the middle of the round and the finishing stretch would go back to the Jackson Park side. That would seem like a ho-hum finish in my judgement unless some serious magic happens (possible).

[Andy Johnson]

Drew,


I have seen the same routing map, I think that if they host championships they will have a championship routing that would have it finish on the lake. 


Tim as for the dog, that's mine....I understand that you think the city will fail this project and I am sure that they will cripple it mightily and keep it from being as good as it could. All I am saying is that no matter what this sells:


Tiger Woods designed golf course, lake front holes, skyline views.


As for the rates, I have heard that their could be a "hyper local rate" of $20 or less for residents within 2 miles of the course. For city residents likely around $60. It will be the best golf option in a landslide for anyone in the city and there are enough golfers in the city to pack the tee sheet everyday.

[Paul OConnor]

Chicago Park District's current policy for children 17 years and younger at Jackson Park and South Shore.  From CPD Website.  This is a pretty sweet deal for Chicago kids, free golf anytime M-F at South Shore.  Any danger that this actual effort to bring kids into the game would be compromised by the proposal? 

 With a Paying Adult
FREE, Any day, anytime!
 Kids 17 and under. One free kid with each paying adult.  All rounds based on space available. Walking only.
Without a Paying Adult
 kids without a paying adult under the age of 17 can play for free at the following listed times for each course. 
Jackson Park
 Monday-Friday Before 8am & After 3pm
 Weekends After 2pm
South Shore
 Monday-Friday Anytime
 Weekends After 11am
 

[Terry Lavin]

Two things:  the routing is the opposite of what Andy suggested with the SS holes being on front and 18th green at NW corner of property. As for caddies and local involvement, that's a huge focus of the private fundraising along with a WGA Caddie Academy which will house kids from around the country and put them through high school and hopefully with a shot at the Evans Scholarship. A neighborhood based caddie program is also planned with some subsidization of their fees.

It's not about taking an underused urban course, adding a zero to the green fees and screwing the neighborhood.

Ambitious, indeed, despite what the naysayers may predict or pray for. As for me, I think the South Shore and Jackson Heights areas might get some needed gentrification. The bones are there.

[Jud_T]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-jackson-park-golf-met-20170106-story,amp.html

[Tim_Cronin]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-jackson-park-golf-met-20170106-story,amp.html

Rolfing got himself a nifty $90,000 consulting fee for determining that his idea was feasible, the Tribune reports.


Nice work if you can get it.

[Paul OConnor]

Remade Jackson Park Golf Course Won't Just Be For Elites, Parks Chief Says
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170110/south-shore/jackson-park-golf-course-south-shore-cultural-center-tiger-woods-barack-obama-michael-kelly

[George Freeman]

Some movement:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170112/BLOGS04/170119965/south-shore-championship-golf-course-takes-a-step-forward#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccb-breakingnews&utm_campaign=ccb-breakingnews-20170112

[V_Halyard]

Remade Jackson Park Golf Course Won't Just Be For Elites, Parks Chief Says
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170110/south-shore/jackson-park-golf-course-south-shore-cultural-center-tiger-woods-barack-obama-michael-kelly

Ha ha. Some of you guys are funny and I love you for it. If the BMW is afraid to valet park in Chicago City Limits south of Madison after 3p that's fine. There are neighborhoods in Evanston that I'm just as afraid to traverse for fear of getting profiled and tasered.  Alright, that's out of the way, Let's begin.

First, I've lived on all sides of Chicago, South Side, Lincoln Park, DePaul, River West, Oak Park, and Wrigleyville,... which is secretly a separate nation.  There is nothing like living and taking your clubs on the El to play golf at Waveland and there is nothing impossible about this. YES there is blight nearby and YES there WILL be greasy palms and YES the Friends of the Park WILL s#it a brick but in the big picture, the city has ample precedent and a pathway to completion:
- NY's successful folly, The blindingly successful tax revenue generating absurdity of Chelsea Piers, a former brownfield rail yard
- The mass earth moving success of Whistling Straits, a former flat as a skating rink military base
- The gorgeous TV ready-for-its closeup oft Filmed Chicago Skyline
- Thousands of golfers not afraid to walk,park their cars, take the El, bus, cab or über to the South Shore with their clubs
- Potential positive economic and social development
- Tiger Woods * President Obama = Global Spotlight
- TGR, IMG, USGA, PGA, FoxTV, Golf Channel, ESPN etc. 
If the BMW is afraid to go too urban, I will bet anybody that somebody else will jump at the opportunity to make the money.
The public spotlight will keep a focus on the First Tee and reasonable local greens fees.
The state could very well sabotage the effort in Springfield but the potential positive press and economic development revenue could stymie that resistance, at least to a compromise.

In closing,... have you seen Soldier Field?  The city and state approved year round parking for a disfigured UFO. So a well architected picture-postcard-TV-ready ready golf course framed by the beauty of the lakefront and ringed with the publicity halos of Tiger Woods and President Obama stands a pretty good chance. 


Soldier Field Chicago

[Tim_Cronin]

Maybe they'll get Michael Jordan to design their next basketball arena.

WW

If he brings back that pipe organ from the stadium, I'm all for it.   

Phil Maloof owns the organ and installed the console in his music room in his Las Vegas home. Sounds just like it was at the Stadium, minus the big echo, of course. Two of his older brothers own 15 percent of the Vegas Golden Knights, the new NHL team. Maybe he could be persuaded to take the whole shooting match to the new barn there and plug it into the PA.

[Paul OConnor]

People have some questions.... CPD has some answers...

http://www. chicagoparkdistrict.com/ assets/1/7/Q_A_from_1-9-17_ Jackson_Park_Advisory_Council_ Mtg.pdf

[V_Halyard]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-chicago-golf-course-bmw-championship-spt-0916-20150915-story.html

The plan would combine South Shore and Jackson Park. 

My preferred plan would be adding 600 acres to Northerly Island, 200 acres of park, 400 of golf.  That would have downtown views, a short uber from tens of thousands of hotel rooms.  Between Soldier Field, McCormick Place and Millenial Park there is a ton of parking.

Make no small plans.

Great Lakes Compact my have an opinion but it is not a sacred shoreline. In reality, the Chicagoland shoreline is mostly man made landfill and breakwater.

[John McCarthy]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/ct-chicago-golf-course-bmw-championship-spt-0916-20150915-story.html

The plan would combine South Shore and Jackson Park. 

My preferred plan would be adding 600 acres to Northerly Island, 200 acres of park, 400 of golf.  That would have downtown views, a short uber from tens of thousands of hotel rooms.  Between Soldier Field, McCormick Place and Millenial Park there is a ton of parking.

Make no small plans.

Great Lakes Compact my have an opinion but it is not a sacred shoreline. In reality, the Chicagoland shoreline is mostly man made landfill and breakwater.

They added six acres to Lincoln Park last few years at the end of Fullerton Ave.  The compact would be a minor hurtle if the environmental stuff is done correctly.  They currently dredge sand out if some channels at Port of Illinois and Gary.  We could do infill of clean construction excavation (and get paid $250 per truck load to do it) then top with sand from the channels. 

[Jud_T]

https://www.google.com/amp/chicago.suntimes.com/politics/former-emanuel-aide-out-of-the-shadows-on-golf-project/amp/

[Terry Lavin]

What that article establishes is the ambitious private fundraising goal of $24 million to make this project become a reality. When one considers the amount of money being raised for the nearly adjacent Obama Presidential Library, it's obvious that this is an enormous benefit for the local community. Throw in the fact that the current state of Jackson Park is one of disrepair owing to underfunded maintenance and you have the makings of an impressive urban renewal project driven by the contributions of a bunch of one-percenters. I can't find any reason to be cynical here. As I've said before, I hope it happens.

[SL_Solow]

As I said at the start, give this a little time.  There are a lot of people working on it who are trying to get it "right" from a golf and a societal standpoint. 

[Carl Nichols]

I went to school and Hyde Park and played Jackson Park many times, and South Shore a few times, in the mid 1990s.  My primary memory is that both courses are incredibly flat, and thus that there would have to be very significant earth-moving--even of the Rawls Course variety--to make the new course interesting enough to demand high rates. 

[V_Halyard]

I went to school and Hyde Park and played Jackson Park many times, and South Shore a few times, in the mid 1990s.  My primary memory is that both courses are incredibly flat, and thus that there would have to be very significant earth-moving--even of the Rawls Course variety--to make the new course interesting enough to demand high rates.

Agree but not impossible. Same general topography as pre Whistling Straits military base... tabletop.

[Declan Kavanagh]

I agree with Lavin and Andy J.  I can't find much downside to this if there is indeed a hyper local rate, caddie program and first tee facility.  I don't have a ton of experience with the south side but I do know that many neighborhoods include the adjacent South Shore neighborhood are in dire need of help.  This would not solve the problems but I do not see how it would hurt the situation.


With all the talk and numbers about golf being in decline mode, I know there is a vibrant, passionate and diverse golf community in Chicago.


I think the biggest hurdle aside from politics and whatnot is the fact that the land is pretty mediocre aside from it being on the lake. 


My family belonged to the SSCC from the twenties through the end of the club.  I would love to see some money go to revitalizing the building so that it could host First Tee and community events.  I hear use of the clubhouse is not really in the cards but it would be nice.


Also, the tee sheet would definitely be packed.  It's much closer than Harborside and with even a half-assed attempt at designing a solid course it will easily beat out the somewhat pathetic layout of Harborside.

[Jim Nugent]

Can someone who understands golf course economics (I don't) explain the finances of a project like this?  Given a cost of $30 million, what green fees must they charge outside players, if half or so of the tee sheet is reserved for local play at $40 a pop?  What if cost overruns drive that $30 million up to, say, $50 million?

Are they counting on an annual PGA tour event to throw in millions each year, and would that by itself do the job?

[Jason Way]

There are certainly people on here more qualified to answer your question than I am, but I have learned a bit about the subject from my involvement with Canal Shores.

Your question conflates two separate aspects that should more appropriately be kept separate - the cost of the renovation, and the go-forward cost of operating the renovated facility.

Given that the City is kicking in an estimated 20% of the renovation, and private donors are covering the rest, there is no debt to service going forward.  The long-term cost of the CPD's contribution gets lost in the wash of all of the city's debt obligations.  The donors are making charitable donations to the project, and they are not expecting a return.  Therefore, in the long term, the budget for the renovation, and to what degree there is waste in executing the renovation, is irrelevant.  As this thread indicates, there is a philosophical debate to be had about the highest and best use of resources, but the only input the public really has into that debate takes place during the next Mayoral election.  The private donors are "voting" with their contributions.


With regard to the operating/maintenance expenses going forward, and what profile of greens fees is created, there is a sliding scale based on the maintenance profile that is necessary to keep players happy.  If some of those players are from the PGA Tour, then obviously, maintenance requirements will be more intensive, and that will require that the PGA Tour kick in.  If they want to charge out-of-towners $100, or $200+ to play the course, there is an expectation of better conditions that will increase expenses.  Event and other revenue, and the associated expenses, would get plugged into the model as well. 

The question embedded in the process of creating those financial projections is, can they adhere to their desire to keep green fees low for locals and free for youth (which I believe is a sincere desire) while remaining clear-eyed and realistic about making the bottom line of the facility somewhere in the neighborhood of breakeven (meaning not an ongoing drain on the CPD's larger operations)?  Not an easy question to affirmatively answer, but there is a way to make it work, and I hope that they can figure it out.

To add one more layer to the financial perspective, there is the broader economic impact that I do believe is a part of the thinking here.  Although I haven't read specific references to East Lake in the press re: this project, I know that there is attention being paid to that model.  I came across this Economic Impact Study:

https://www.terry.uga.edu/media/documents/selig/east_lake_study.pdf

Have not had a chance to really pour over it, but what I have read seems quite favorable to me. 

At the end of the day, I agree with Shel on this one.  There are smart and experienced people involved in this, and I would very much like to see them make it work.

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