[CStrange]

There are plenty of success stories.

Here's a look at some results of a program that has been used at SFGC and MPCC, not sure if they're on it anymore or not but it does work.  The conditons at Stevinson Ranch were a product of this program.  The concepts of the Logan program are what is being used at Hazeltine refined by way of Minikahda years ago.  And if I had to guess the excellent conditons at Royal Melbourne are based on a similar program.


http://www.slideshare.net/greenwaygolf/greenway-turf-program-beforeafter-slides-1


http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2008jun39.pdf

The program is simple but flys in the face of conventional U.S. agronomy. 

Here's the Basic ideas.

-Low Nitrogen-Starve the Poa and less growth means less thatch, which means less need to mow or cultivate.
-Acidifying Fertilizers(AmSol and FeSol)-The acid environment has a negative impact on poa and moss.  The FeSol keeps it green with little growth.  FeSol dries down the plant when timed right help burn out Poa  Also beneficial for fighting patch diseases.
-Lots of rolling with minimal mowing-Rolling without mowing helps the bentgrass do what it does best, spread out and compete with the poa.  Mowing hurts the grass, just smash it down and let it creep.  Train it to stay low.
-Mowers equipped with smooth rollers(vs. grooved)-Again not cutting the grass as much and providing smoothing effect.
-Minimal surface disruption.(No coring or verticutting) You don't allow the poa seed to establish itself by by keeping the surface closed.
-Paclobutrazol applications.  This growth regulator hits poa hard while promoting the health of the bentgrass.

All of these practices cost less money.  The fertilizer components are cheap ag grade products.  The mowing/rolling regimen uses less labor and fuel.  Less surface disruption means less labor and more golf.


Cheers

[John Kirk]

John Kirk said about his home club Pumpkin Ridge, ,

"Greens are rarely maintained at a Stimpmeter speed above 10.5 feet,"

I interpret the tone to indicate that green speeds of 10.5 feet are considered inferior, at least at Pumpkin Ridge.

What speed would be satisfactory?

During the Poa transition years, the young Poa plants would grow faster than the existing bentgrass plants, making the greens a bit bumpy as the day progressed.  Still, the superintendent could mow at .10 - .13 inches and keep the grass healthy for the most part, but they hardly ever rolled the greens.

Today, when the weather is cooperating (it did not this year - very hot and dry), he can roll them on the weekends and make the greens faster if he wishes.  Most members enjoy these faster conditions.  We have pretty flat greens, so a little extra speed makes the penalty for short-siding oneself greater, which enhances strategic play.  Also, it's simply cool to watch a ball roll so smoothly and without friction.

10.5 feet is fine for daily play.  Our course probably works best for a good player or club member if the greens are at 11 - 11.5 feet, which we see maybe 15-20 days a year.  Many days during the transition we would play the greens at 8.5 - 9.5 feet, which is quite slow.

(please keep in mind that my evaluation of green speeds tends to be a foot higher than the typical observer.  If somebody thinks the greens are rolling at 9 feet, I often think it's 10 feet.)

Thanks fr the question, Steve.

[Dane Hawker]

The program is simple but flys in the face of conventional U.S. agronomy. 

Here's the Basic ideas.

-Low Nitrogen-Starve the Poa and less growth means less thatch, which means less need to mow or cultivate.
-Acidifying Fertilizers(AmSol and FeSol)-The acid environment has a negative impact on poa and moss.  The FeSol keeps it green with little growth.  FeSol dries down the plant when timed right help burn out Poa  Also beneficial for fighting patch diseases.
-Lots of rolling with minimal mowing-Rolling without mowing helps the bentgrass do what it does best, spread out and compete with the poa.  Mowing hurts the grass, just smash it down and let it creep.  Train it to stay low.
-Mowers equipped with smooth rollers(vs. grooved)-Again not cutting the grass as much and providing smoothing effect.
-Minimal surface disruption.(No coring or verticutting) You don't allow the poa seed to establish itself by by keeping the surface closed.
-Paclobutrazol applications.  This growth regulator hits poa hard while promoting the health of the bentgrass.

All of these practices cost less money.  The fertilizer components are cheap ag grade products.  The mowing/rolling regimen uses less labor and fuel.  Less surface disruption means less labor and more golf.

I do most of these steps to maintain pure poa greens 

[John Kirk]

Once again, thanks to all who have contributed.

To CStrange and David Tepper, I read the suggested articles (one by our own A. Pioppi).  In general, I am less impressed with successes in central and southern California, though some of the results of the Logan (Greenway) system have been very impressive.  In Minnesota, I believe bentgrass holds its own against Poa quite well, due to the temperature extremes.

I don't have an axe to grind here.  I am an interested golfer who enjoys the quest for ideal playing surfaces.  If anything, I suspect that a natural approach, allowing a region's dominant grasses to dominate and thrive will work best in the long run.  I also suspect that the use of herbicides and other growth and seed limiting chemicals has a mild but lasting detrimental effect on the environment.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, I haven't seen any success stories, so I'll probably head over to Heron Lakes and have a look.  Bend, Oregon gets far less rain, and may be able to keep the Poa out.  A trip to Pronghorn would be educational.  Two very nice golf courses a bit too far from town.

Finally, it was frustrating watching the putting during the U.S. Open at Chambers Bay this year.  I saw the 9th green close up after play one evening; it appeared to be 30-50% Poa in the areas I scrutinized.  With everything at stake for the course and the host governing body, you would think with all that money and know-how the greens would be smooth for four days of tournament play.  Even at their worst, Pumpkin Ridge's greens never experienced that level of inconsistency of roll.  In my opinion, the problem was the initial decision to have fescue greens, which appear to transition to Poa in a less graceful fashion than bentgrass.  As the science evolves, it appears that fescue fairways and bentgrass greens is the way to go.   

[CStrange]

Here's some more reading on the choice of Fescue at Chambers Bay.


http://aggca.blogspot.com/2015/06/fescue-folliesnot-best-choice-for-greens.html


Cheers

[Scott Stambaugh]

John-

I have not been there in a year, but the greens at Aldarra Golf Club in Fall City, Washington (30 minutes East of Seattle) have been poa free (or nearly poa free) since they were seeded in 2000-2001.  If you are from/reside in the PNW, then you know how remarkable of a feat this is.  I believe their Superintendent and a few of their members have been contributors on this site in the past.  If you're looking for some insight, I would suggest starting there. 

Scott

[Sean Leary]

John-

I have not been there in a year, but the greens at Aldarra Golf Club in Fall City, Washington (30 minutes East of Seattle) have been poa free (or nearly poa free) since they were seeded in 2000-2001.  If you are from/reside in the PNW, then you know how remarkable of a feat this is.  I believe their Superintendent and a few of their members have been contributors on this site in the past.  If you're looking for some insight, I would suggest starting there. 

Scott

As Scott mentions, Sean Reehoorn is doing fantastic work at Aldarra and posts here occasionally. John, I can connect you with Sean to give you some insight on what he has been doing in the recent past. It sounds like the Logan program, or something close to that.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Hello all,


I have been pretty lucky in that I have worked at many facilities with bentgrass greens throughout different growth stages in areas that are difficult to grow bent.   I did my internship at Aldarra and like Scott and Sean have said they have great bent greens in an area that is almost impossible to do. I was there when Paul Colleran was in charge, one of the best supers ever who is sorely missed.  He was a big fan of the Logan theory aka Aussie method.   I learned a lot when I was there on why certain products went out on the greens. 


At Shady Canyon I was there in the final stage of the grow in process of their newly seeded bent greens.  Those greens were redone after tens years upon opening from them being covered with poa.   The membership wanted the best greens possible and John Nachreiner provided that for them with his great knowledge of how to provide a superior product.   


Now, I am at Wickenburg Ranch in the desert in Arizona.  The course is at 2,500 feet elevation which is pretty much the borderline in the desert for bent.  The greens are in their 8th year and are still amazing.   To be honest they are some of the best greens I have ever putted on.   We manually pick out the poa starting in January till May.  We do a full course check a total of 3 to 4 rounds depending on how bad it is.   We have one to two people walk each mower line looking for it.   It probably takes upwards of 30-45 minutes a green.   By the summertime the poa checks out due to the intense heat, so managing it in the spring is critical.   This along with the Logan's theory of high iron along with other micronutrients, and trimmit (pgr) which helps with poa suppression are huge factors in keeping the poa at bay.    We are about to seed 12 new greens for a 9 hole par three course with a different blend of bent.    Each process is a big learning experience on what helps and what doesn't. 

[Jon Wiggett]

The program is simple but flys in the face of conventional U.S. agronomy. 

Here's the Basic ideas.

-Low Nitrogen-Starve the Poa and less growth means less thatch, which means less need to mow or cultivate.
-Acidifying Fertilizers(AmSol and FeSol)-The acid environment has a negative impact on poa and moss.  The FeSol keeps it green with little growth.  FeSol dries down the plant when timed right help burn out Poa  Also beneficial for fighting patch diseases.
-Lots of rolling with minimal mowing-Rolling without mowing helps the bentgrass do what it does best, spread out and compete with the poa.  Mowing hurts the grass, just smash it down and let it creep.  Train it to stay low.
-Mowers equipped with smooth rollers(vs. grooved)-Again not cutting the grass as much and providing smoothing effect.
-Minimal surface disruption.(No coring or verticutting) You don't allow the poa seed to establish itself by by keeping the surface closed.
-Paclobutrazol applications.  This growth regulator hits poa hard while promoting the health of the bentgrass.

All of these practices cost less money.  The fertilizer components are cheap ag grade products.  The mowing/rolling regimen uses less labor and fuel.  Less surface disruption means less labor and more golf.


Cheers

Makes a lot of sense and you would hoe most courses would be looking at this. It is however about reducing the poa in the sward and not about eradicating it though I suspect the latter is not possible.

Jon

[Chris Hans]

Scott at Yale

[Steve Okula]

Scott at Yale

Last I saw Yale two years ago they had reduced the Poa and encouraged the bent to about 80% of the sward. Scott never expected to eradicate it completely.

[Pete Lavallee]

There are plenty of success stories.


Cheers

Do you aerate, if so what size holes and how often? This to me seems the primary entry point for Poa.

[John McCarthy]

How do greens with velvet bent that are many decades old keep the poa annua out? 

[Jon Wiggett]

How do greens with velvet bent that are many decades old keep the poa annua out?

John,

I have only had a little bit of experience of Velvet bent but would imagine that the incredibly dense sward it has might have something to do with it.

Jon

[Keith OHalloran]

Steve,
I have never been to a club that advertises stimp speeds under 10, so I would say 10 is your cutoff! 

[Steve Okula]

How do greens with velvet bent that are many decades old keep the poa annua out?

Where are there greens with decades old velvet bent and no Poa?

[Steve Okula]

Steve,
I have never been to a club that advertises stimp speeds under 10, so I would say 10 is your cutoff! 

And I have never seen a course that is publicly honest about their green speeds.

[Keith OHalloran]

Steve,
I have never been to a club that advertises stimp speeds under 10, so I would say 10 is your cutoff! 

And I have never seen a course that is publicly honest about their green speeds.

So I wasn't putting on 14s at the local last week? 

[John McCarthy]

How do greens with velvet bent that are many decades old keep the poa annua out?

Where are there greens with decades old velvet bent and no Poa?

Steve:  I am not a turfguy by any stretch.  So I am arguing from a position of ignorence....but there are still some velvet greens out there.  I have played 2 in my life.  I am a midwest guy and I am told there are more out east. 

But the velvet greens are really old, built before regulators and modern agronomy.  Yet they survive today.  Poa annua existed then as it does now.  My interest is was there something unique to velvet which allowed resistence to poa or are the few that exist have beneficial microclimates which have allowed them to survive? 

[John Kirk]

And I have never seen a course that is publicly honest about their green speeds.

Excuse me Steve, but our superintendent is a terrific person, and has no need to be deceptive about green speeds.  I know him quite well, and have never heard him say anything resembling an exaggeration or a fib.  A comment like yours injects doubt into the discussion, without cause.

Pumpkin Ridge's greens are about as good as the other private clubs in the Portland area.  They are much more fun now that they have transitioned to Poa annua.

[Steve Okula]

John Kirk, I make no reference to your GCS at PR. I'm sure he's a sterling character. I said that courses can't be trusted when they make public their speeds.  I'm not saying that supers do this, but we are seldom responsible for marketing and PR.  I have seen other management in golf clubs exaggerate their speeds to their members or competitiion event organizers. No one ever understates it.

 John McCarthy, where are the two velvet bentgrass greens (do you mean individual greens or entire courses?) that you have played?
I don't know anybody who has ever managed velvet bent on putting surfaces, and I would be interested to learn more. 

[John Kirk]

John Kirk, I make no reference to your GCS at PR. I'm sure he's a sterling character. I said that courses can't be trusted when they make public their speeds.  I'm not saying that supers do this, but we are seldom responsible for marketing and PR.  I have seen other management in golf clubs exaggerate their speeds to their members or competition event organizers. No one ever understates it.

OK Steve, sorry about that.  The first comments in this thread about green speeds were mine, followed by your question about my remarks.

A few years ago, our superintendent posted the weekend green speeds on a bulletin board for a couple summers.  Not exactly public information, as the course is private.  Currently, sometimes the pro shop knows the figure if you ask for it.

At the recent Web.com tournament here a few weeks ago, course officials requested that the greens not be rolled for extra speed.  It was thought they were fast enough for tournament play without rolling.

[Tim Martin]

Scott at Yale

Scott Ramsey continues to do an amazing job. Greens are healthy and rolling great.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John Kirk, I make no reference to your GCS at PR. I'm sure he's a sterling character. I said that courses can't be trusted when they make public their speeds.  I'm not saying that supers do this, but we are seldom responsible for marketing and PR.  I have seen other management in golf clubs exaggerate their speeds to their members or competitiion event organizers. No one ever understates it.

 John McCarthy, where are the two velvet bentgrass greens (do you mean individual greens or entire courses?) that you have played?
I don't know anybody who has ever managed velvet bent on putting surfaces, and I would be interested to learn more.

Shelter Harbor has Velvet Bentgrass

[John Kirk]

Hello all,

I have been pretty lucky in that I have worked at many facilities with bentgrass greens throughout different growth stages in areas that are difficult to grow bent.   I did my internship at Aldarra and like Scott and Sean have said they have great bent greens in an area that is almost impossible to do. I was there when Paul Colleran was in charge, one of the best supers ever who is sorely missed.  He was a big fan of the Logan theory aka Aussie method.   I learned a lot when I was there on why certain products went out on the greens. 


At Shady Canyon I was there in the final stage of the grow in process of their newly seeded bent greens.  Those greens were redone after tens years upon opening from them being covered with poa.   The membership wanted the best greens possible and John Nachreiner provided that for them with his great knowledge of how to provide a superior product.   


Now, I am at Wickenburg Ranch in the desert in Arizona.  The course is at 2,500 feet elevation which is pretty much the borderline in the desert for bent.  The greens are in their 8th year and are still amazing.   To be honest they are some of the best greens I have ever putted on.   We manually pick out the poa starting in January till May.  We do a full course check a total of 3 to 4 rounds depending on how bad it is.   We have one to two people walk each mower line looking for it.   It probably takes upwards of 30-45 minutes a green.   By the summertime the poa checks out due to the intense heat, so managing it in the spring is critical.   This along with the Logan's theory of high iron along with other micronutrients, and trimmit (pgr) which helps with poa suppression are huge factors in keeping the poa at bay.    We are about to seed 12 new greens for a 9 hole par three course with a different blend of bent.    Each process is a big learning experience on what helps and what doesn't.

Peter,

Thanks for the comments.

Give my regards to Lucy.
 

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