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Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2015, 06:33:09 AM »
Pebble Beach seems to be quite highly thought of by this panel.
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2015, 06:40:50 AM »

  Sorry chap, but your point was effectively bullcrap. ;) Exclusivity has absolutely ZERO weight in the vote of any panelists I know. Personal taste, design integrity, and quirk yes, but votes for exclusivity remains the domain of GD and the handful of courses that preclude all others but GD from rater visits.


  The GM Top 100 process is considerably different than GD or GW. I'm not saying it's uniformly better, but the emphasis is on seeing worthy courses throughout the world and it does take time for a mere 100 to get to places like China, Australia, Thailand and the Netherlands. Votes are made only on courses that have been played and GM panelists are asked to state the last time they've visited that course. This alone explains the ascent of Shanquin Bay and Ellerston.

BTW.....Although too late for the 2015 ballot, expect to see Cabot Cliffs debut on this list very, very high....perhaps the highest modern since Sand Hills or Pac Dunes.
 


Steve:


As a fellow GOLF Magazine panelist, I wish I agreed with your defense of the process ... but I can't say that I do.  It just seems to be the "international" version of GOLF DIGEST's love for certain exclusive U.S. courses that hardly anyone BUT a panelist can visit.  I feel strongly that the committee is now stacked with people voting in favor of token additions from different countries including South Korea, China, Portugal, and now Thailand and The Netherlands [though I like Royal Hague very much].  The fact that several of these clubs have paid big money to host a tournament as an excuse to pay quite a few panelists to travel there, just before their remarkable climbs up the list, is too big of a coincidence for my senses to believe.


I have not seen the whole list yet and I don't particularly care whether Old Macdonald has slipped a bit or not ... perhaps that will make room in my quota for a different course to push up the list next time.  But it would be nice to believe that the rankings are still on the level, and it is getting harder to believe every two years.


If I'm not on the panel in two years' time, just refer back to this post!  :)


Tom,


   Your disagreement might be one of semantics. My argument was sheerly a response to the postulate that "exclusivity" of the clubs matter.


   I don't disagree that the inclusion and rise of a small number of courses from the likes of a "few" number of countries you cited is undoubtedly a reflection of the active and financially-generated advocacy of a (few) panelists. It is also in no small part due to the magazine's desire to name courses from "all over the world." I've yet to play three of them in question so I couldn't say whether they are truly worthy or not. I've heard both sides from a few people whom I respect, but I'll reserve my final judgement until I tee it up at those venues.


  I also don't disagree that the process is unfairly skewed by the FIFA-like practice these pay-to-play tournament events. It's really not right nor defensible. The only recompense is to add/replace with panelists who are immune to such pseudo-charms and I believe that is taking place. albeit slowly. For example, several of the recent adds have entirely too much self-respect to fall prey to the charms of a marketeer.


  The panel would suffer an egregious loss without you and no matter where your courses or votes come out, your eye is among the most learned, experienced, and critical of the group. Regardless of our differences of opinion from time-to-time, I'd staunchly advocate for your participation and inclusion.


Cheers
 


   
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2015, 06:47:01 AM »
"Financially generated advocacy". Hmm. Care to elaborate? 

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2015, 07:26:46 AM »
"Financially generated advocacy". Hmm. Care to elaborate?

Think Brad Klein.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2015, 08:13:48 AM »



I think you'll find that most panelist have played all the ultra exclusive courses long before they were ever added to any panel. You must have some "background" in seeing great golf before someone recommends you.




Tom,


The assertion that rank is for sale assumes a very dim view of panelists. Everyone has their own specific likes and dislikes and votes according to their personal taste. Smaller voting samples for remote courses will always raise their level until others go and discover whether they feel the same way.





With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2015, 11:09:03 AM »

Interesting takes from...


Planet Golf - Darius Oliver
http://planetgolf.com/index.php?id=1891


and Geoff Shackelford
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 11:15:54 AM by Greg Tallman »

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2015, 01:24:58 PM »

  I also don't disagree that the process is unfairly skewed by the FIFA-like practice these pay-to-play tournament events. It's really not right nor defensible. The only recompense is to add/replace with panelists who are immune to such pseudo-charms and I believe that is taking place. albeit slowly. For example, several of the recent adds have entirely too much self-respect to fall prey to the charms of a marketeer.





Based on Dan Ariely's research, you might need to use robot panelists. You're fighting a basic human instinct.

Quote
It’s true that free samples help consumers learn more about products, and that they make retail environments more appealing. But samples are operating on a more subconscious level as well. “Reciprocity is a very, very strong instinct,” says Dan Ariely, a behavioral economist at Duke University. “If somebody does something for you”—such as giving you a quarter of a ravioli on a piece of wax paper—“you really feel a rather surprisingly strong obligation to do something back for them.”
-- "The Psychology Behind Costco's Free Samples," The Atlantic
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/the-psychology-behind-costcos-free-samples/380969/
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2015, 01:48:00 PM »
Mark,
 
You make a very fair point; and a point which the good people at Michelin have long had an understanding of. Paying the bill and going incognito is the only sure way of avoiding reciprocity bias.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Noel Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2015, 01:53:19 PM »
Robert Cialdini's Influence is the bible on the reciprocity bias..

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2015, 01:53:24 PM »
To follow up on Marks comment...
 
Not only is the freebie mindset at play, but also the long ago proven concept that nearly everyone....even raters... can be bought, its just a matter of finding the right price.
 
An all expenses paid trip to an exotic location with first class treatment and all the extravagant extras seems to have met the price of many if not most...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2015, 02:46:01 PM »
It is also in no small part due to the magazine's desire to name courses from "all over the world."
 


That's indicative of the problem, right there.  If the magazine has a "desire" for certain results, how can the process hope to stay on the level?

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2015, 02:48:30 PM »
It probably doesn't help the defence of the panelists to point out that the third best course in Aberdeen, or possibly fourth best if your definition of the general area is broader, has made it to #48. And yet those other courses don't seem to be in sight. How strange.  ;)
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

C. Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2015, 04:45:18 PM »
From my experience, most panelists want free golf and free golf for there friends and spouses!  This is not all of them, but a surprisingly large percentage.  I have been told they would rate the course I was working at lower if I did not comply.  I also took there names down and reported them to there respective magazines, who told me they should get comped.  That shows me the magazines and panelists want free golf and are going to rate courses higher for giving them extras!
Just my experience,
chris

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2015, 06:48:09 PM »
From my experience, most panelists want free golf and free golf for there friends and spouses!  This is not all of them, but a surprisingly large percentage.  I have been told they would rate the course I was working at lower if I did not comply.  I also took there names down and reported them to there respective magazines, who told me they should get comped.  That shows me the magazines and panelists want free golf and are going to rate courses higher for giving them extras!
Just my experience,
chris


While most certainly true with Golf Digest and GolfWeek (many but certainly not all) I have never encountered anything of the like with GOLF. To the contrary some actually do make their own tee time, show up unannounced, and simply go about their business. In this regard the professionalism of the GOLF Magazine panel is far greater than the others. As to what is being discussed in this thread I am best served to say nothing on the matter.

Ben Malach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2015, 07:19:22 PM »
I feel that this is the best place for me to discuss my one run in with a rater this summer. Me and two other gentlemen where playing golf at a course held in good regard by this board and in the top 100 on multiple lists. When behind us comes a cart screaming down the fairway with the caddie clinging to the back and two people riding up front. This being an uncommon sight as the course in question is walking only. Off hops the caddie who rushes over to tell us that this group would be playing though as the only person playing was a rater who needed to see the course and was flying out tomorrow after seeing the newly opened second course. Our group did not care but it would have been nice to be asked rather than told. Then as the rater putts out behind us he whips his camera out. He starts to walk past without acknowledging our group and starts to shoot photos without stopping to frame the shots or examine the hole that he is shooting. All this being said if this is the quality of the person rating courses. There is no wonder why some of these rankings seem out of wack with what is truly going on golf wise.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2015, 09:44:35 PM »

In this regard the professionalism of the GOLF Magazine panel is far greater than the others. As to what is being discussed in this thread I am best served to say nothing on the matter.

Your choice of the word professionalism was truly inspired.  The different definitions of the word pretty much cover all the bases here.

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2015, 10:21:18 PM »
My take is that for the majority of this board, allyougottado to join the panel is play the top 100. Extant.


I'm assuming it's really that simple.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2015, 12:49:03 AM »
Congratulations to the Cal Club for finally being recognised for being a great course in a World Top 100 list

Good to see Ellerston boost the Aussie numbers.

Laughable about Pebble Beach at # 7


Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2015, 01:52:40 AM »

Laughable about Pebble Beach at # 7

Laughably high or laughably low? 

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2015, 04:51:05 AM »
I think I may safely speak for Kevin in saying it is not deserving of a place in the World Top 10. It is not better than NGLA or RM to name but two of the significant number of Doak Tens sitting below it.

"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2015, 06:27:05 AM »
My take is that for the majority of this board, allyougottado to join the panel is play the top 100. Extant.


I'm assuming it's really that simple.


Jonathan,


It is not, but feel free to continue to speculate.


As for position of Pebble Beach, it is so much an iconic and accessible course that I'd wager nearly EVERY panelist has played there and many, if not most, view it through rose colored glasses. Not entirely unlike the treatment Whistling Straights received early on. Personally, and just my opinion, I'd put PB only inside the top 20 US and Top 30 world.


Tom,


   Easy to argue about the skews of "desire," but until someone does this for pure altruistic reasons (and not even the CG Guide can claim such innocence 8) ) global reach for business purposes isn't the most onerous of reasons for process dilution.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2015, 11:47:41 AM »

At least they updated the language to state accurately that Olympic has hosted five U.S. Opens, but anyone that has played The Lake in the past 10 years should question their ability to count ...

"Laid out on the side of a hill overlooking Lake Merced, its fairways hemmed in by thousands of cypress and eucalyptus trees, its greens and landing areas bracketed by wrist-fracturing rough, Olympic has proved to be an imposing test for five U.S. Opens. On fog-free days, the 247-yard, par-3 third enjoys stellar views of the Golden Gate Bridge."
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tim Passalacqua

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2015, 12:53:13 PM »
Mike,


I totally agree.  The short grass around many of the greens has been a great addition.  Also, they do an excellent job of keeping the rough very short and playable. 

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2015, 01:17:33 PM »

In this regard the professionalism of the GOLF Magazine panel is far greater than the others. As to what is being discussed in this thread I am best served to say nothing on the matter.

Your choice of the word professionalism was truly inspired.  The different definitions of the word pretty much cover all the

 ;) not intended as you may suggest. Making a profession from being a panelist is an interesting concept though  ;).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 06:14:11 PM by Greg Tallman »

Greg Gilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Six new additions to Golfs top 100 world
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2015, 05:05:53 PM »
I should write a tell all article on this garbage.

Greg, please do & PM it to me and others you can trust!