Diamond Springs

[BCowan]

Wow!

Fun, fun, and more fun.

[Chris_Blakely]

I played the course over 7 years ago and I still remember 15 through 18!

Chris

[Jason Way]

Wow!

Fun, fun, and more fun.

I loved it too, Ben (especially for the price).  What were some of the highlights for you?

[BCowan]

Chris/Jason,

   I'm not surprised, those last 4 or 5 holes has some of the coolest land I've seen.  Those ravines are very well utilized.  I thought 16 was one of the best par 5's if seen in awhile.  Some tree clearing is needed to the left off the tee, but the 2nd shot gives you a Pete Dye like decision.  Bail out left away from the ravine and you have an incredibly difficult 3rd on a great half par 5. 

   Unfortunately they over watered the course due to the high temps and it was soft.  Would love to have another crack at it in a couple weeks when weather is perfect (don't have the time).  The continuous ties of greens to tees was really neat, looked ANGC inspired.  The boldness of the green was so refreshing.  The keeper must of been hung over, to say I experienced Sunday pins was an understatement.  The first par 3 on the front had somewhat of a double plateau green that was great, of course the pin was on the back shelf(which was cool). The speed slots off the tee was a nice feature Mike utilized.  Course was $30 to walk and $47 to Cartball.  $1600 for season pass with range and cart.  If I lived 40 mins away I would definitely play this course a ton.  This leaves the Mines left to notch off my DeVries trifecta of SW Michigan.  I would have to play Pilgrims and Diamond again to figure which was my favorite.  Diamond is definitely a more unique experience. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

MIke DeVries and Kris Shuemaker where the hands and minds on the ground at Pilgrims Run. They collaborated about at Diamond Springs, where my father also helped out. Mike Designed The Mines which is now where Kris is the Superintendent. Pretty neat span of 15 years with that collaboration.

[Michael J. Moss]

Diamond Springs photos, please!?

[BCowan]

I'm curious as to how many other GCAers have played Diamond Springs?  Isn't Mike DeVries suppose to be loved on this site yet not many have played this wonderful course? 

Cowan
DeToro
Nysse
Way
Blakely
Shanley
Hancock
Fitz

[Tim Fitz]

Well Ben, you can now add me to the list of folks that have played Diamond Springs.

I agree with most of what has been said.  It is an incredibly fun course.  The decisions on mowing (basically one cut everywhere by the green and the junk) give it a unique look and must cut down on maintenance expense.  The greens had all sorts of wonderful quirk, with some real challenges (#2 was almost like Crystal Downs #7 rotated 90 degrees; the first par three had three distinct tiers, each presenting their own challenges).  The course was wide, but put a premium on angles and approaches (especially on a few of those greens).  The use of the ravines on a number of holes was a blast and it even gave me a chance to try to drive the green on a short par 4 that was a hero/zero type shot.  The pro was very welcoming and the course was wide open.  On top of all that, the price was right ($37, which came with a cart)!

There were a few negatives (which may be due in part to location and in part the low greens fees).  First, the course was playing very soft and wet.  It seems like it calls for an F&F set up and I was disappointed and how soft it played.  I was under the impression that the ravines and dunes were all sand based, so I would have thought the course drained well.  Second, the greens were quite slow.  Given some of the slope on a few of the greens, I wasn't looking for Oakmont, but you really had to crush the ball to get it to the hole.  Finally, my twosome was the only group out there walking the course!  When we asked about walking in the pro shop, we got a quizzical look and two quick questions "1. you do realize that your greens fee comes with a cart, right? 2. Do you normally walk 18 holes?"    

In any event, I highly recommend Diamond Spring when in the greater Saugatuck area.  Well worth driving directly past the Ravines to get to DS.

[Jason Way]

I have only been once Tim, so I am not sure how they normally keep the course, but it was not wet when I went.  Given the big thunderstorms that have rolled through MI in the last few days, I am not surprised that DM was a bit soggy. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

I have only been once Tim, so I am not sure how they normally keep the course, but it was not wet when I went.  Given the big thunderstorms that have rolled through MI in the last few days, I am not surprised that DM was a bit soggy.

They had tornados not too far away yesterday and 4" of rain the weekend before.

[BCowan]

Well Ben, you can now add me to the list of folks that have played Diamond Springs.

I agree with most of what has been said.  It is an incredibly fun course.  The decisions on mowing (basically one cut everywhere by the green and the junk) give it a unique look and must cut down on maintenance expense.  The greens had all sorts of wonderful quirk, with some real challenges (#2 was almost like Crystal Downs #7 rotated 90 degrees; the first par three had three distinct tiers, each presenting their own challenges).  The course was wide, but put a premium on angles and approaches (especially on a few of those greens).  The use of the ravines on a number of holes was a blast and it even gave me a chance to try to drive the green on a short par 4 that was a hero/zero type shot.  The pro was very welcoming and the course was wide open.  On top of all that, the price was right ($37, which came with a cart)!

There were a few negatives (which may be due in part to location and in part the low greens fees).  First, the course was playing very soft and wet.  It seems like it calls for an F&F set up and I was disappointed and how soft it played.  I was under the impression that the ravines and dunes were all sand based, so I would have thought the course drained well.  Second, the greens were quite slow.  Given some of the slope on a few of the greens, I wasn't looking for Oakmont, but you really had to crush the ball to get it to the hole.  Finally, my twosome was the only group out there walking the course!  When we asked about walking in the pro shop, we got a quizzical look and two quick questions "1. you do realize that your greens fee comes with a cart, right? 2. Do you normally walk 18 holes?"    

In any event, I highly recommend Diamond Spring when in the greater Saugatuck area.  Well worth driving directly past the Ravines to get to DS.

Tim,

    Glad you liked it.  I played DS on Labor Day last year and it was in the low 90's.  They hadn't gotten any rain prior in the week and the fairways were soft.  I think they probably did a heavy dosing the morning off for the bluegrass fairways.  The greens were 10+ and soft but rolled wonderfully (too fast for the par 3 green on the back).  If I lived in Grand Rapids or within an hr of DS it would be my home track.  It has been known by friends of mine who are somewhat locals to be in inconsistent shape.  I did a thread specifically related to DS, ''cost to maint 65 yards of turf Bent vs Blue'', Brauer claims that it costs around $5,000 a square acre to maint bent, I'm curious if that number is old or how many agree with it given the New Bent varieties, also using numbers from Non high end private clubs I'd be interested in seeing.  I'd love to see them convert to the new bent strands and I think it would definitely increase their yearly rounds.  It is a field of dreams type of place out in the country. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62347.msg1483099.html#msg1483099

Our SE MI gca group might be playing there on Oct 1st or 8th, you can join us if you like for it should be firm by then! 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Well Ben, you can now add me to the list of folks that have played Diamond Springs.

I agree with most of what has been said.  It is an incredibly fun course.  The decisions on mowing (basically one cut everywhere by the green and the junk) give it a unique look and must cut down on maintenance expense.  The greens had all sorts of wonderful quirk, with some real challenges (#2 was almost like Crystal Downs #7 rotated 90 degrees; the first par three had three distinct tiers, each presenting their own challenges).  The course was wide, but put a premium on angles and approaches (especially on a few of those greens).  The use of the ravines on a number of holes was a blast and it even gave me a chance to try to drive the green on a short par 4 that was a hero/zero type shot.  The pro was very welcoming and the course was wide open.  On top of all that, the price was right ($37, which came with a cart)!

There were a few negatives (which may be due in part to location and in part the low greens fees).  First, the course was playing very soft and wet.  It seems like it calls for an F&F set up and I was disappointed and how soft it played.  I was under the impression that the ravines and dunes were all sand based, so I would have thought the course drained well.  Second, the greens were quite slow.  Given some of the slope on a few of the greens, I wasn't looking for Oakmont, but you really had to crush the ball to get it to the hole.  Finally, my twosome was the only group out there walking the course!  When we asked about walking in the pro shop, we got a quizzical look and two quick questions "1. you do realize that your greens fee comes with a cart, right? 2. Do you normally walk 18 holes?"    

In any event, I highly recommend Diamond Spring when in the greater Saugatuck area.  Well worth driving directly past the Ravines to get to DS.

Tim,

    Glad you liked it.  I played DS on Labor Day last year and it was in the low 90's.  They hadn't gotten any rain prior in the week and the fairways were soft.  I think they probably did a heavy dosing the morning off for the bluegrass fairways.  The greens were 10+ and soft but rolled wonderfully (too fast for the par 3 green on the back).  If I lived in Grand Rapids or within an hr of DS it would be my home track.  It has been known by friends of mine who are somewhat locals to be in inconsistent shape.  I did a thread specifically related to DS, ''cost to maint 65 yards of turf Bent vs Blue'', Brauer claims that it costs around $5,000 a square acre to maint bent, I'm curious if that number is old or how many agree with it given the New Bent varieties, also using numbers from None high end private clubs I'd be interested in seeing.  I'd love to see them convert to the new bent strands and I think it would definitely increase their yearly rounds.  It is a field of dreams type of place out in the country. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62347.msg1483099.html#msg1483099

Our SE MI gca group might be playing there on Oct 1st or 8th, you can join us if you like for it should be firm by then!

The business model there never included bent. You're not going to have 65 acres of bentgrass for $37 a round. The aerification, spraying, grooming and verticutting alone will make it a sinking ship. Not including spraying 65 acres of bentgrass for multiple diseases. Not to mention the uniqueness of how everything is mowed at one height. Bentgrass isn't a great turf above .5" or so and certainly a pull behind mower wouldn't give the cut that bent needs compared to bluegrass/fescue. (Too fine.)

It's not broke and doesn't need fixing.

[BCowan]

The business model there never included bent. You're not going to have 65 acres of bentgrass for $37 a round. The aerification, spraying, grooming and verticutting alone will make it a sinking ship. Not including spraying 65 acres of bentgrass for multiple diseases. Not to mention the uniqueness of how everything is mowed at one height. Bentgrass isn't a great turf above .5" or so and certainly a pull behind mower wouldn't give the cut that bent needs compared to bluegrass/fescue. (Too fine.)

It's not broke and doesn't need fixing.
[/quote][/i]

Tony,

   Business models can change. They built a grill room and it didn't get used so they closed it down. There is an example.  I believe the land is very very good and you would have to ask locals within 40 mins if maint practices cause them to play less.  Also at DS I'd expect to see a keeper more hands on doing work throughout the day.  The question would be if a $250,000 budget went to $350,000 how many more rounds could be increased?  Season passes sold? They don't mow rough there, there isn't any and they save a lot of money there.  I'd like to see firmer new bent cut at .5, if it looks bad forget the gang.  In my world the keeper would be doing verticutting.  You aerate 2 times a year or farm in out.  It's on sand so top dressing might not be needed in fairways.  Raise the green fees to $50 on weekends and have inexpensive season passes $1,500 a year

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ben,
  I know they don't mow rough. Everything is one cut. My dad helped build the place. Played opening day with Mike DeVries and a local press guy.

  They don't mow "rough" because it's all one cut. Switching to bent would either force them to maintain more bentgrass than any course in the state OR establish fairways with bent, rough with bluegrass. And again, this would change everything including how Mike designed the place.
  The grill room was closed bc their wasn't a demand and the clientele there also isn't demanding bentgrass fairways. Too tight cut for those that return there multiple times a years to play.
  There are multiple private clubs in the area that can't get 2 core aerifications in a year, so it's not going to happen at DS. And there isn't any companies that they can "farm" it out to within 3 hours of Hamilton. If 65 acres is your number, $40k to aerify one time is on the low end. 2x? A course charging $37 isn't paying that kind of money for contracted work, nor is their clientele demanding it. That's why they went with bluegrass. Low maintenance.
Topdressing? Sand or not sand, I can't name one course in West Mi that's topdressing fairways.
  And at a course that's $37/ round, the "keeper" would be lucky to have a $250,000 and 6 staff members. You're not paying him/her enough to be there all day to handwater or "Verticut."

[BCowan]

Ben,
  I know they don't mow rough. Everything is one cut. My dad helped build the place. Played opening day with Mike DeVries and a local press guy.

  They don't mow "rough" because it's all one cut. Switching to bent would either force them to maintain more bentgrass than any course in the state OR establish fairways with bent, rough with bluegrass. And again, this would change everything including how Mike designed the place.
  The grill room was closed bc their wasn't a demand and the clientele there also isn't demanding bentgrass fairways. Too tight cut for those that return there multiple times a years to play.
  There are multiple private clubs in the area that can't get 2 core aerifications in a year, so it's not going to happen at DS. And there isn't any companies that they can "farm" it out to within 3 hours of Hamilton. If 65 acres is your number, $40k to aerify one time is on the low end. 2x? A course charging $37 isn't paying that kind of money for contracted work, nor is their clientele demanding it. That's why they went with bluegrass. Low maintenance.
Topdressing? Sand or not sand, I can't name one course in West Mi that's topdressing fairways.
  And at a course that's $37/ round, the "keeper" would be lucky to have a $250,000 and 6 staff members. You're not paying him/her enough to be there all day to handwater or "Verticut."

$40,000 to aerate the joint is low?  I'm ur guy then.  I never said introduce rough, so what if it is most bent in the state. Give me a number how much the budget would increase?  What hand watering are they doing there?  They can aerate in November themselves.

Are u sure clientele isn't demanding it?  Or potential clients?  He isn't verticutting everyday.  He isn't handwatering either. Cutting cups and mowing greens.  Imo bent grasses are over maintained.  As I said raise green fees to $50 for infrequent visitors and lower season passes for locals.  Your proving my point with the grill, people don't make time to eat.  Fairways and greens are most important to golfers, that's how most judge a course. 

[Greg Chambers]

Converting 65 acres of blue to bent at a public course that's open seasonally and only charging $50 a round would be a suicide mission.  And there is no upside on a limited budget, so what would be the point?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Converting 65 acres of blue to bent at a public course that's open seasonally and only charging $50 a round would be a suicide mission.  And there is no upside on a limited budget, so what would be the point?

Greg,
  This is exactly the point that I'm trying to get across. And I'm very comfortable to say that the clientele isn't demanding it. The course was built with a certain clientele in mind. Many of the higher end, public golf courses really struggled. Another course that Mike Did with Kris Shumaker-The Mines, doesn't have bent fairways, but has defined fairways. Clientele doesn't demand it nor would that budget support bentgrass fairways.
  You're not going to see a lot of handwater at a course with 5-6 staff and a price point of $37. That's just a common sense fact. The people that are playing there would rather have a fluffier lie and green grass. Most of them do not even know how cool of a design they're playing on, they just know the price point is right.

[BCowan]

Tony,

    Again you keep going back to original intent business model. They intended to serve burgers, they now have turn sandwiches in golf shop.  DS blows the Mines out of the water, not even close.  DS could separate itself from the GR area pack.  I also said for the 3rd time to raise weekend rates to $50, while keeping season passes low. Season pass holders pay ur maint budget.

Hand watering bent fairways, please elaborate why that is needed?  The beauty of the new bent is they require 40% less water.  I agree that some of the clientele don't know, but they are missing out on more repeat and new play. Basically need 14 new players a day to recoup turf improvements.

   

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony,

    Again you keep going back to original intent business model. They intended to serve burgers, they now have turn sandwiches in golf shop.  DS blows the Mines out of the water, not even close.  DS could separate itself from the GR area pack.  I also said for the 3rd time to raise weekend rates to $50, while keeping season passes low. Season pass holders pay ur maint budget.

Hand watering bent fairways, please elaborate why that is needed?  The beauty of the new bent is they require 40% less water.  I agree that some of the clientele don't know, but they are missing out on more repeat and new play. Basically need 14 new players a day to recoup turf improvements.

 

Ben,
  I don't know what to tell you. I walked the course during construction, played with Mike, Dad helped build it and grew up 20 mins away where my family still is.
  Several golf courses of lesser conditions and service have closed in that area and charged less. You're not going to get $50 on the weekend.
  I don't know where you keep thinking that bent requires 40% less water. In totality? Maybe, but then you're spot watering with hoses and staff. That's not going to happen at DS.
  DS will never separate itself from the GR pack because its 40+mins away. They're grabbing players from Holland, South Haven and Zeeland.

I don't think that they are missing out on any continued play and/or repeat play. I think that they set up to be a certain type of course/club and are accomplishing that.

[Russ Arbuthnot]

Don't know if anyone else saw this, but US Amateur semi-finalist Nick Carlson grew up playing at Diamond Springs.


http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/golf/2016/08/21/blue-collar-ethos-drives-golfers-nick-carlsons-rise/89089152/

[Tim Fitz]

Don't know if anyone else saw this, but US Amateur semi-finalist Nick Carlson grew up playing at Diamond Springs.

When I played last Thursday, the pro mentioned the connection with obvious (and deserved) pride.  He indicted that he taught Nick to play the game until he was 12 years old, at which point he pointed him to the next step/teacher in his progression.  Sounds like a great story and Nick appears to come from a course that is a blast to play, not just a "true championship test".

[BCowan]

Tony,

    Again you keep going back to original intent business model. They intended to serve burgers, they now have turn sandwiches in golf shop.  DS blows the Mines out of the water, not even close.  DS could separate itself from the GR area pack.  I also said for the 3rd time to raise weekend rates to $50, while keeping season passes low. Season pass holders pay ur maint budget.

Hand watering bent fairways, please elaborate why that is needed?  The beauty of the new bent is they require 40% less water.  I agree that some of the clientele don't know, but they are missing out on more repeat and new play. Basically need 14 new players a day to recoup turf improvements.

 

Ben,
  I don't know what to tell you. I walked the course during construction, played with Mike, Dad helped build it and grew up 20 mins away with my family still is.
  Several golf courses of lesser conditions and service have closed in that area and charged less. You're not going to get $50 on the weekend.
  I don't know where you keep thinking that bent requires 40% less water. In totality? Maybe, but then you're spot watering with hoses and staff. That's not going to happen at DS.
  DS will never separate itself from the GR pack because its 40+mins away. They're grabbing players from Holland, South Haven and Zeeland.

I don't think that they are missing out on any continued play and/or repeat play. I think that they set up to be a certain type of course/club and are accomplishing that.

Tony,

   That's fair enough, I don't know the holland market or GR's appetite for longer distance travels.  I just hope the next time I play DS it's firm

[Dave McCollum]

Strikes me that Tony is spot on with his economic analysis.  He knows the market and the golfers.  We've increased our maintenance budget by 100K and actually seen play go down.  The trick is to keep your maintenance costs in line with what folks are willing to pay. At the prices you quoted they'd need 250 season pass holders (since the cart expenses are included) to cover their maintenance costs.  One course in our region that has bent fairways, greens, and tees, Old Works in MT, charges 50+ bucks and has a very hard time making money.  They had no land cost, no construction cost, no design fee (mitigation project paid for by the superfund site owners).  The town had to build a clubhouse that is modest, nice, and very efficiently designed.  Add on the "Jack Nicklaus Signature Design" for mass golfer appeal.  It's a good course and well maintained.  Probably a similar season to MI.  With all of these advantages including strong regional appeal, it still struggles given its remote location.         

[BCowan]

Dave,

    I understand what you are saying.  The thing is Grand Rapids has a very good public golf scene, one of the better markets that I've come across, especially per capa which makes my idea less viable.  Diamond is very unique in that it has very wide fairways and short grass on a lot of holes to the next tee.  I actually played it last year on my bachelor party as it was moved from long island to Kalamazoo  .  Everyone I know that has played DS has loved it, half the people complained of the conditions.  I have seen people make comments to me about a course that is liked on GCA in regards to the conditioning being poor and they wouldn't return.  DS is in between GR and Kalamazoo. Kzoo is on the weaker side for golf my friends tell me.  I'd just like to be able to determine what it would cost to maint bent per acre from more of viewpoint of a hands on Keeper, which I have worked for.  I have friends that are keepers at high end clubs that just delegate.  Also another buddy doesn't like how slow it takes low mow blue to grow/respond in the spring.  I'm looking forward to playing Stoatin Brae to give their blue's a shot.  DS looks to be a short jog off someone's radar heading from Chicago area on their way up North.  I'd love to see DS work with local breweries to get posters of the course hung on brewery walls.  That area is beer mecca and they get many outside visitors.  Anyway every area is different, I had a buddy drive from Birmingham to A2 (hr) to play the same course, an Indy acquaintance of mine says many folks IHO don't travel more then 10-15 mins in Indy for good golf.  That same person said he used to travel an hr in the Seattle market for decent golf. 

   I'm curious how Tony would feel about making 10-15 yards of bent (without hand watering) or possible fescue (if it could handle humidity) around the greens as a compromise or if that would be a waste in his opinion.  I hope to play it in early October and hope that it is firm.  I'll give it a few more goes.  I hope someone can post some photos, Tim?

[Peter Pallotta]

Dave - I've often wondered: when a course owner/experienced insider like you says that a course is "struggling", what do they usually mean? Is the course literally not able/barely able to pay its bills, or is it more that the yearly profit for the owner is/seems not enough of a living wage, and that the investment (of time and work and love) will only pay off after the course is sold for housing?