[Jon Wiggett]

Paul,

I wonder if it were not better to create rating for greens based upon the slopes on the green and speed so that greens with more slope would have a lower stimp readings and flatter ones would have higher. What gets me is that professional players dislike lower stimping greens as they find them harder to putt on yet the blind fools running most tournaments  usually insist on higher stimping greens in the misguided attempt of trying to make their host courses harder. Thus they play right into the hands of the professionals by helping them hole even more putts.

Jon

[Niall C]

Paul

Clearly the south of England is a different world to Scotland and the north of England. I have never ever heard a fellow member advocate watering to produce a lush green colour either for the sake of how it looks or to produce soft squidgy ground conditions.

I have on occasion heard comment on the colour by way of reference to how the course is playing ie. lush green equates to soft and wet, but I’ve yet to hear someone asking for over watering. I have heard suggestions that the course could do with a bit of water because it has become too dry with resulting issues such as cracks appearing in clay soil for instance or where there is a danger of grass dying and bare dirt patches forming, but that is the opposite side of the spectrum from wanting to water the course so that it is soft and lush such that the ball plugs or semi plugs when it lands or just because it looks nice. I have never ever heard that.

With regards to stimp meters I understand the principle and have seen a demonstration on how they basically work but I’m not sure that the average member would be able to tell you how they work. However I am certain that very few members could identify the stimp reading on a green with any degree of accuracy other than by guessing, simply because they have no point of reference. The speed of the greens is just not discussed in those terms, certainly not in the clubs I’m familiar with.

Now the greenkeeper may or may not use a stimp meter and he may or may not discuss stimp readings with the greens convener but I’ve never heard a greens convener say what the greens are stimping at, and I’ve been friends with several members who have held that position.

To get back to the basic question though, is there an Augusta syndrome (in the UK), I’d suggest not really. I’m convinced that the vast majority of club members are keenly interested in how the course plays but in doing so they are looking for a wee bit of run to help their drives, the absence of mud on their ball tee to green and on their approach shots and greens at a “decent” pace which I would suggest is a long way short of balls rolling endlessly by the hole and even going off the green. No one wants to look silly, at least not on a regular basis .


The caricature of golfers wanting lush green soft conditions with lightning quick greens might be applicable in the US, I don’t know, but I don’t think it applies here.

Niall

[Paul Gray]

Niall,
 
Well I think we may have stumbled into something of a conclusion: the Augusta Syndrome doesn't fair well up in wet old Scotland but is breeding successfully down here in the south east of England. To give one further example, stimp readings are often published down here and expected levels set with a view to the membership using such readings as a barometer regarding quality. In fact at my club those stimp readings were included as part of a five year strategic plan. And if that all sounds utterly stupid, welcome to my world!   

[Thomas Dai]

I'm affraid to say that I reckon that AN-syndrome, well, maybe ANS should be renamed TV Syndrome, is alive and kicking in the UK. A couple of examples.


Many years ago I was a member at a links course north of the border highly praised herein. This was around the time when UK TV started to show a lot more US golf. "Why can't our greens be as green as those we see on the TV from the US" was the kind of phrase expressed. The course concerned had a greens irrigation system but it was used sparingly and the greens were firm and the ball upon landing made a lovely 'thump' sound but took spin from a properly hit shot and the ground game was pretty much king. A couple if years later the greens were soft and spongy and a year or two after that machines were pulling thatch out on a regular basis.


Move on a few years and at a parkland course where I play mostly these days members regularly natter about stimp readings and the greens (and fairways and tees) needing to be green and how we must have fairway irrigation and a lake somewhere to collect more water. The worst culprits proposing this approach seem to be the members who, sorry to say it, not only like TV golf but also visit or have visited the US (or southern holiday destination Europe) and return gushing praise for green and believing watering is the only way to go.


Back to TV. Now golf is on TV a great deal these days but TV golf is really just entertainment. When you visit the theatre or watch a movie the actors wear make-up and the background scenes are mostly fake. TV golf is also theatre/entertainment with all sorts of things added to venues for the days of the tournament that are normally not there, colourful shrubs and plants in pots and coloured divot mix and awnings to block out unsightly views and the like for example and courses frequently closed for play for periods before and after tournaments and bigger maintenance crews and more machinery on site before and after as well. TV golf isn't real golf, it's phoney golf and as such we should be taking what we see on our screens with a large pinch of salt rather than following it blindly. Not sure that average Joe Golfer sees it this way though, unfortunately, so until lack of water availability really kicks in and/or water costs escalate hugely I find it difficult to see things changing and in generally damp, wet, temperate UK it won't be kicking in any time soon.


And now that even famous links courses are installing fairway watering systems...best not get me started on that one!


Rant over (for now!).


Atb

[Paul Gray]

That's it, Thomas wins the internet today for a mighty fine post. 

[Niall C]

Atb


Cruden Bay put in green irrigation as far back as 1901 and I doubt there has been many of the top links that haven't had any irrigation throughout for quite a number of decades, but I can't imagine you would put any of them in the Augusta category just because they use their watering system as and when required. As for thatch, I'm no agronomist but I think I'm right in saying that you will get thatch build up in any 100 year old green irrespective of how much they get watered.


Next week I'm off to Spain with a group of 8 players, all members of clubs with links courses, and you can bet we will be having a great old time driving about in carts, drinking beer and playing a game that passes for golf but would be better termed splodge ball, all while the sun beats down. You can also bet your house on getting the dirtiest look imaginable from any of these guys if you were to suggest replicating the Spanish ground conditions on the courses back home. I might add that none are GCA types.


If there are UK golfers out there who are happy with soft and lush and all that brings such as plugged balls, mud ball etc., then I've yet to meet them.


Niall

[Paul Gray]

"The greens aren't holding!"
 
You've never heard this, Niall?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Would someone explain, in detailed specificity, exactly what "Augusta Syndrome" is ?
 
Does the concept of optimal playing surfaces in Georgia in the Spring enter the discussion ?

[Niall C]

Paul


I won't say I've never heard someone say something like that but then if I have I'm not sure it was in the context of a complaint. If we are dreaming up imaginery quotes then I think you are more likely to hear the following;


“It’s like a bloody quagmire out there”
“It just died, I’m getting no run at all”
“I’m fed up cleaning mud off my ball”
“I wish people would repair their pitch marks”
“That’s not a pitch mark, that’s a crater”
“The golf season is only 3 or 4 months long on this course”

None is a specific quote I've heard but all reflect the sentiment of your average golfer when it comes to ground conditions. I think sometimes on this discussion board we like to hold ourselves up as being distinct from the average golfer in terms of likes and dislikes but when it comes to the ground under out feet I'm not sure our views are that diverse. Let me end this post with a real quote from Ally Matheson, the Cruden Bay greenkeeper, that comes from Patrick Mucci's thread on conditioning;


"Over here in the UK I have to say it is becoming rare IMO to see over irrigated golf courses , Plenty are being over watered but you would have to speak to the man upstairs about that ."

I think that better reflects the day to day reality most clubs face which is putting a premium on getting water off the course rather than putting it on.

Niall

[Paul Gray]

Niall,
 
I can only refer back to what I was saying before: your golfing world up north must be very different from the one both I and Thomas Dai are familiar with.
 
Pat,
 
If Augusta has optimal playing conditions in April now, what did it have fifty years ago?

[Anthony Gholz]

Yes.


1) Our greens committee voted that "lush and green" is favorable to "firm and fast with a little brown."


2) Of course the committee will change again next year. 


3) committee devoted two hours yesterday to discussing removing fescue and planting flowers between two holes


depressing

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

How many women on the committee ?

Yes.


1) Our greens committee voted that "lush and green" is favorable to "firm and fast with a little brown."


2) Of course the committee will change again next year. 


3) committee devoted two hours yesterday to discussing removing fescue and planting flowers between two holes


depressing

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,
 
I can only refer back to what I was saying before: your golfing world up north must be very different from the one both I and Thomas Dai are familiar with.
 
Pat,
 
If Augusta has optimal playing conditions in April now, what did it have fifty years ago?



Optimal playing conditions

[Jeff Bergeron]

Yes.


1) Our greens committee voted that "lush and green" is favorable to "firm and fast with a little brown."


2) Of course the committee will change again next year. 


3) committee devoted two hours yesterday to discussing removing fescue and planting flowers between two holes


depressing

So much for educating the membership.Having just played Port Huron it is built on the ancient lake bottom of Lake Huron and has an amazing dune that cuts through the entire property. Unfortunately, it is largely covered by trees and excessive underbrush.


The direction the Green Committee is 180 degrees counter to what most on the site would propose. In a member owned club environment this is what we deal with.

[Thomas Dai]

I can only refer back to what I was saying before: your golfing world up north must be very different from the one both I and Thomas Dai are familiar with.

Yip, and refering to Nialls earlier comment there may be a general issue with getting water off the course through the off-season but down south UK wise summer seems to be more and more 'turn the taps on' time.

TV Syndrome.

Atb


PS ever noticed how the outfield on UK (and even Aussie) cricket pitches on TV are now lovely and green all summer. Once upon a time they'd frequently be brown and biege and burnt up. Not now though, so it's not just golf that's gone more green.

[Paul Gray]

Niall,
 
I can only refer back to what I was saying before: your golfing world up north must be very different from the one both I and Thomas Dai are familiar with.
 
Pat,
 
If Augusta has optimal playing conditions in April now, what did it have fifty years ago?



Optimal playing conditions

Go on then, explain to me why you feel they haven't changed.

[Anthony Gholz]

Patrick:


Three women.  and we have two fountains.  One of the water hazards is legit.  It was there, and in play as a year round "swamp", in 1920 when Alison routed the course and it has become more defined hazard as time and committees have worked on it. The Ladies Association gave the club a 'free" waterfall a couple years back.  Sorta like a free horse.


The master plan calls for Bill Newcomb's totally man-made water feature on #15 to be eliminated, but the board has debated eliminating that recommendation from the plan.


Tony

[Paul Gray]

Niall,
 
I can only refer back to what I was saying before: your golfing world up north must be very different from the one both I and Thomas Dai are familiar with.
 
Pat,
 
If Augusta has optimal playing conditions in April now, what did it have fifty years ago?



Optimal playing conditions

Go on then, explain to me why you feel they haven't changed.

Patrick, I'm awaiting your response with immense anticipation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Gray,


Must I teach you everything ? 😜


In 1850 the optimal commercial travel time between the UK and New York was roughly  five (5) days.


In 2015 the optimal commercial travel time between the UK and New York is roughly
7.5 hours


Context Paul, context


Both points in time, 1850 and 2015, had their optimal travel times, but that doesn't mean that they were equivalent.


Ditto golf courses.


You have so much to learn and I can only devote a limited amount of time to your education.

[Paul Gray]

Pat,


You're not getting away with it that easily, old chap.


So Augusta is better conditioned now than it was in years gone by? And if your point is that conditioning at both points in history were different but equal, how and what changed to mean optimal, while not being any better or worse, has become different?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You're not getting away with it that easily, old chap.

So Augusta is better conditioned now than it was in years gone by? And if your point is that conditioning at both points in history were different but equal, how and what changed to mean optimal, while not being any better or worse, has become different?
 
Paul,
 
I'm shocked that you're not embarrassed to ask these questions
 
How and what changed at ANGC over the years ?
 
Let's start with the grass on the greens, formerly Bermuda, which was pretty slow.
 
The maintenance equipment has changed.
 
The irrigation system has changed.
 
The height of the fairways and greens has changed.
 
I'm surprised that you didn't know this.

[BCowan]

In Pat Mucci's recent thread 'I had an interesting conversation today' there was brief discussion of the ANGC syndrome. Lush green conditions, maintenance perfection, wall-to-wall green, flowers, etc. on the golf course hosting the most watched golf tournament year in and year out. I contend that ANGC has significantly influenced the expectations of American golfers. The result is excessive (1) water use, (2) fertilizer and chemicals, (3) trees and other plantings and (4) spending to achieve an unobtainable result.


So what is it? Is there an AGNC syndrome? Is it different for private and public clubs?

To answer your question in fewer words, I'll be boycotting the 2016 Masters. 

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

You're not getting away with it that easily, old chap.

So Augusta is better conditioned now than it was in years gone by? And if your point is that conditioning at both points in history were different but equal, how and what changed to mean optimal, while not being any better or worse, has become different?
 
Paul,
 
I'm shocked that you're not embarrassed to ask these questions
 
How and what changed at ANGC over the years ?
 
Let's start with the grass on the greens, formerly Bermuda, which was pretty slow.
 
The maintenance equipment has changed.
 
The irrigation system has changed.
 
The height of the fairways and greens has changed.
 
I'm surprised that you didn't know this.

That's getting you nowhere.

I'm pleased that you acknowledge the changes. Now explain how both were/are different and yet both optimal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You're not getting away with it that easily, old chap.

So Augusta is better conditioned now than it was in years gone by? And if your point is that conditioning at both points in history were different but equal, how and what changed to mean optimal, while not being any better or worse, has become different?
 
Paul,
 
I'm shocked that you're not embarrassed to ask these questions
 
How and what changed at ANGC over the years ?
 
Let's start with the grass on the greens, formerly Bermuda, which was pretty slow.
 
The maintenance equipment has changed.
 
The irrigation system has changed.
 
The height of the fairways and greens has changed.
 
I'm surprised that you didn't know this.

That's getting you nowhere.
 
That's only because you're a moron


I'm pleased that you acknowledge the changes.
 
Now explain how both were/are different and yet both optimal.

It's called context relative to time frames.
 
Please have someone explain it to you, as I don't have the time.

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

You're not getting away with it that easily, old chap.

So Augusta is better conditioned now than it was in years gone by? And if your point is that conditioning at both points in history were different but equal, how and what changed to mean optimal, while not being any better or worse, has become different?
 
Paul,
 
I'm shocked that you're not embarrassed to ask these questions
 
How and what changed at ANGC over the years ?
 
Let's start with the grass on the greens, formerly Bermuda, which was pretty slow.
 
The maintenance equipment has changed.
 
The irrigation system has changed.
 
The height of the fairways and greens has changed.
 
I'm surprised that you didn't know this.

That's getting you nowhere.
 
That's only because you're a moron


I'm pleased that you acknowledge the changes.
 
Now explain how both were/are different and yet both optimal.

It's called context relative to time frames.
 
Please have someone explain it to you, as I don't have the time.

Good, we've worked our way back to period references. This is the box I made for you in the first place.


The floor is clear for you to enlight us all.

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