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Justin VanLanduit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2015, 05:12:55 PM »
Each person will have their own perception of what is ideal, and ideal for them is usually what suites their game and nobody else.  I'm sure you can stop a 4 some on a golf course and ask them how they feel the conditioning is and they will all have different things to say.  In fact just the other day I had a member stop me while I was hitting chips and putts on our 17th green testing our conditions and told me how fast the greens were, then as I finished and went to the clubhouse I had a member at the putting green ask me why the greens were so slow.  I just had a conversation the other day regarding bunker firmness, this member hates firm bunkers while others tell me the bunkers are the best they've ever played from.


No matter how a course is conditioned people will have their differences.  I can tell you I hear from members "the course looks great" way more then the "course is playing great".  That tells the story right there.  I'm confident that I can say for myself and my peers, Superintendents, that we strive for ideal conditions on a daily basis.  Some maybe not but that may be due to significant factors that go into it that we don't know.  And often times, just when we get things ideal which we have maybe been working at for a week or two it can all be washed away in a matter of 10 minutes by Mother Nature.  Budget, labor availability, etc plays a lot at times into the "over water" scenario.  Might just be they don't have the budget or the staff to be running around with a hose or late afternoon/weekend water runs.  I know a lot of course that water to get through the weekend because of this exact situation. 


Lastly, a lot of golfers are just worried about that 4-4.5hrs that they are their playing.  They aren't concerned about what took place the day before or what may be taking place the day after etc...  I know for myself my maintenance schedule is based upon weather and events.  Maybe a place you played that was "over watered" put a wetting agent down that had to be watered in real good, or have an event in 5 days where the Super decided to give the course a good drink cause he's shutting the water down for the next 4 days and not watering for the event.  I'm just trying to point out that a great amount of thought goes into all this, and rarely is it that we just want to water, water, water so things are soak.  It doesn't benefit us at all, it's worse to manage a course that is wet than dry.[size=78%] [/size]

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2015, 07:59:04 PM »

Justin,

An excellent post and a telling quote:

I can tell you I hear from members "the course looks great" way more than the "course is playing great".  That tells the story right there.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 06:59:29 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Conditioning
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2015, 11:31:10 PM »


Paul,

Are there any of us that would accept soft greens putting at 6 ?

Justin's comment about "looks" vs "playability" is the product of weekly telecasts of PGA Tour events

Striving for ideal/optimal laying conditions/surfaces is a noble pursuit.

Pat,


For once I'm happy to allow you this. I wouldn't personally suggest locale and weather is implied within "course specific" but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in this instance, meaning you've made a fair point. Well done.  ;) ;D

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2015, 06:56:57 PM »
Pat,

There are literally tens of thousands of golfers who accept poa greens stimping at 6 and demand those greens be soft. Play one of the many sudo 'American style' parkland tracks here in Britain (but don't really because you'd hate it as much as me), preferably in February when there are more similarities with the Artic than with Florida, and you'll know exactly what I mean.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2015, 07:26:15 PM »
Each person will have their own perception of what is ideal, and ideal for them is usually what suites their game and nobody else.  I'm sure you can stop a 4 some on a golf course and ask them how they feel the conditioning is and they will all have different things to say.  In fact just the other day I had a member stop me while I was hitting chips and putts on our 17th green testing our conditions and told me how fast the greens were, then as I finished and went to the clubhouse I had a member at the putting green ask me why the greens were so slow.  I just had a conversation the other day regarding bunker firmness, this member hates firm bunkers while others tell me the bunkers are the best they've ever played from.


No matter how a course is conditioned people will have their differences.  I can tell you I hear from members "the course looks great" way more then the "course is playing great".  That tells the story right there.  I'm confident that I can say for myself and my peers, Superintendents, that we strive for ideal conditions on a daily basis.  Some maybe not but that may be due to significant factors that go into it that we don't know.  And often times, just when we get things ideal which we have maybe been working at for a week or two it can all be washed away in a matter of 10 minutes by Mother Nature.  Budget, labor availability, etc plays a lot at times into the "over water" scenario.  Might just be they don't have the budget or the staff to be running around with a hose or late afternoon/weekend water runs.  I know a lot of course that water to get through the weekend because of this exact situation. 


Lastly, a lot of golfers are just worried about that 4-4.5hrs that they are their playing.  They aren't concerned about what took place the day before or what may be taking place the day after etc...  I know for myself my maintenance schedule is based upon weather and events.  Maybe a place you played that was "over watered" put a wetting agent down that had to be watered in real good, or have an event in 5 days where the Super decided to give the course a good drink cause he's shutting the water down for the next 4 days and not watering for the event.  I'm just trying to point out that a great amount of thought goes into all this, and rarely is it that we just want to water, water, water so things are soak.  It doesn't benefit us at all, it's worse to manage a course that is wet than dry.[size=78%] [/size]

Finally some sense in this thread.

Speaking specifically in England, I don't know any that are trying for softer lusher conditions. Every club I know is trying to improve. I know improvement is a dirty word to the Paul Gray's of this world who want sunningdales and cess pits and nothing in between.

The reality is most clubs are striving for better/firmer conditions. Follow a few on Facebook and Twitter all you see is drainage work and aeration. Most new machinery purchases / developments are targeted in this area.

Lots of clubs are trying to solve the perennial problem of bunker contamination and many now that greens are generally good are focussing on tees and doing more aeration.

I see nothing wrong with clubs and members wanting paths to be tidy and edged properly, not to mention safe. This is described as beautification - so be it. I find it preferable to shabby and a lack of care. Some find it charming and eccentric for things to be a mess - Like the aristocrat with holes in his jumper. I don't.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Conditioning
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2015, 07:47:14 PM »
Justin,
 
While each golfer may have their own opinion, there is a consensus regarding those opinions, and that consensus is manifested in the playing condition of each course.
 
Clubs decide how the course will be presented.
 
To me, too many are lush green, with not enough F&F.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2015, 06:16:33 PM »


Speaking specifically in England, I don't know any that are trying for softer lusher conditions. Every club I know is trying to improve. I know improvement is a dirty word to the Paul Gray's of this world who want sunningdales and cess pits and nothing in between.

The reality is most clubs are striving for better/firmer conditions. Follow a few on Facebook and Twitter all you see is drainage work and aeration. Most new machinery purchases / developments are targeted in this area.

Lots of clubs are trying to solve the perennial problem of bunker contamination and many now that greens are generally good are focussing on tees and doing more aeration.

I see nothing wrong with clubs and members wanting paths to be tidy and edged properly, not to mention safe. This is described as beautification - so be it. I find it preferable to shabby and a lack of care. Some find it charming and eccentric for things to be a mess - Like the aristocrat with holes in his jumper. I don't.


Choosing to hear what you want to hear.......NEVER have I said anything about wanting cess pits. The fact that you would interpret unpretentious, simple little golf courses as cess pits and imply therein that the introduction of a fountain or two or maybe a few flower beds would qualify as improvement pretty much sums it up. Frankly, you're like the GCA poster chiild for a bygone era of misappropriated attention. 


Or maybe you could tell us, in terms of architecture rather than beautification, just what measures you're trying to introduce at the club you run. Are the trees coming down, that being the most economic way of getting those firmer conditions you're now apparently promoting? Have you introduced more shot options in the process through more width and explained to the membership en mass the architectural basics which make that desirable? Have you told the greenkeeping staff to forget about wavy fairway lines which absolutely no natural contour? Have you told them to forget about those intricate little zigzag patterns woven in, or are you able to say with a straight face that they actually improve the course? I imagine, given your current drive, that's the first bit of time wasting you've stepped on, no? I beleive you've got a few nice run off areas from greens at Knowle so, given your push for more f&f, are they all cut to fairway height now? What, more broadly, are you actually doing to allow the architects' work to sing more clearly? Assuming, based upon your previous comments, that all this has been done, you might want to update the pictures on your website. I've only got as far as #4 and it already looks like a 'spot the deliberate mistakes' competition. And if you haven't done too  much yet, never mind expensive new equipment, all you need to get started is a chainsaw and a lawnmower. Apparently I think improvement is a dirty word. Could you please explain to me then why I'd encourage these improvements.   


It's all well and good to praise Justin for his excellent post but it might be nice if you walked the walk and supported a guy like Justin who wants to do so much more but is hampered by the members you endlessly defend who want to promote their own beautification agendas. Obviously I don't know your Head Greenkeeper but maybe he could do with the kind of affirmation of support which Justin has received from you. If all you do is defend the status quo at your own club, and I'm not saying that's the case, that simply makes you a popular yes man.


I'll await your answers.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 06:23:56 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2015, 07:05:51 PM »
You'll go on waiting, Paul.

Bringing my place of work into the discussion (not for the first time) as a stick to beat me with is a fairly low thing to do.

I discuss (as I did in this thread) in general non specific terms.

I won't discuss my Club on here. It would be unprofessional and self absorbed to do so. All I will say is I'm very proud of it and believe I've done a decent job for them.


Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2015, 07:41:56 PM »
You'll go on waiting, Paul.

Bringing my place of work into the discussion (not for the first time) as a stick to beat me with is a fairly low thing to do.

I discuss (as I did in this thread) in general non specific terms.

I won't discuss my Club on here. It would be unprofessional and self absorbed to do so. All I will say is I'm very proud of it and believe I've done a decent job for them.


And yet the vast majority of people involved in architecture (and this is a site about architecture) are more than happy to discuss exactly that. There is nothing unprofessional about working in golf and discussing golf course improvements with regards to specific courses. It is the norm on this site, regardless of affiliations. There may be occasons when you can't reveal specifics but a blanket policy of silence is bizarre. You praised Justin for comments about his place of work and yet are now suggesting, according to your own stated beliefs, that he is unprofessional for doing so. I seem to recall that you were quite happy to mention it a while back when Adrian Stiff was consulting with you. Apparently then it wasn't unprofessional to mention your efforts at improvements.

Oh well.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2015, 08:00:43 PM »
Paul

You're being disingenuous.

Read your post again and tell me it is anything other than point scoring by shitting all over my Club with a few rhetorical questions thrown in.

Justin VanLanduit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2015, 05:45:33 PM »
Justin,
 
While each golfer may have their own opinion, there is a consensus regarding those opinions, and that consensus is manifested in the playing condition of each course.
 
Clubs decide how the course will be presented.
 
To me, too many are lush green, with not enough F&F.


Agreed, but I'd be willing to bet that 99.9% of golf courses are firmer and faster than they were 15-20 years ago.  That has all come with advancements in technology and education.  Back in the day I believe the common practice was water 8 minutes every night to everything.  Now that has change to monitoring evapotranspiration rates and watering in accordance to this.  Do all courses water this way no, maybe cause they don't have the technology to do so but we are advancing.  I would be willing to bet that places will be more firm and fast in 10 years as things become more advanced.  Although, the way golf is going budgets may not be there to sustain quality playing conditions by handwatering, etc... to keep the course on the edge but yet alive.  That's the fine line which I think the PGA tour is starting to really experiment with.  You watch events these days and come Saturday and Sunday and even myself as a Super wants to grab a hose and give some areas some water.  Each to it's own, how far you willing to push it with the risk of losing turf and then incurring the cost of rehabbing those areas and as a super possibly losing your job, what supports your wife and kids.  And in this market, you lose your job once it's very hard to find another.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2015, 07:02:29 PM »
Paul

You're being disingenuous.

Read your post again and tell me it is anything other than point scoring by shitting all over my Club with a few rhetorical questions thrown in.


Come now Ryan. If you're going to reference me and throw mud, expect me to similarly consider your own positions. If those positions are evidenced at the place you happen to work at, it's on the agenda, whether that's good, bad or indifferent to your self image.

In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2015, 07:09:12 PM »
Justin,


Interesting thoughts. Do you think it is technology which is pushing this drive, albeit very much in its infancy at most clubs, towards f&f or do you think it is the shift in the architectural zeitgeist? Certainly on tour, I'd suggest it has more to do with the rebirth of 'running game' notions than anything to do with equipment. Eventually, slowly, people are beginning to listen to concepts which ODG's recognised 100 years ago. I'd be interested though in your further thoughts re the extent to which technology is shaping things. 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Conditioning
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2015, 07:25:14 PM »
Justin,


I've always maintained that Superintendents, like Chefs, Managers and Head Professionals must serve their employer, so I understand that the Super can't take matters into his own hands.


The cost of water and the clear cut restrictions the states/authorities have placed on water allotments has also been largely responsible for the reductions over the years.


The fact is that lush green, outnumbers, by far, F&F.


As the cost and availability of water continue to be an issue, I think you'll see less water applied, but I'm not so sure that you'll see F&F systemically


Golfers who watch the PGA Tour every week will continue to encourage their club to replicate those conditions, not understanding what's behind conditioning a course for a PGA Tour event

Justin VanLanduit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2015, 07:58:41 PM »
Justin,


I've always maintained that Superintendents, like Chefs, Managers and Head Professionals must serve their employer, so I understand that the Super can't take matters into his own hands.


The cost of water and the clear cut restrictions the states/authorities have placed on water allotments has also been largely responsible for the reductions over the years.





The fact is that lush green, outnumbers, by far, F&F.


As the cost and availability of water continue to be an issue, I think you'll see less water applied, but I'm not so sure that you'll see F&F systemically


Golfers who watch the PGA Tour every week will continue to encourage their club to replicate those conditions, not understanding what's behind conditioning a course for a PGA Tour event


Yes, restrictions are going to help push that.  Here on the north side of Chicago I can speak that myself and my peers strive for firmer conditions each day, that's without water restrictions and a most have a well so no need to even buy water.  Illinois is starting to request water inventories though which is smart on their part but I see they may be barking up the wrong tree.  I laugh each day we get rain as the subdivision and houses in it right by the golf course have the water running while it's raining and immediately after it's raining.  Superintendents have become very wise in how they use their water.



I agree that the lush is the perception most desire.  They want the same for their yard so why not their golf course as well.  Most people see a golf course as a large lawn anyway.  As a 2 handicap and I can appreciate a firm golf course, I love to see roll and watch a ball follow a contour of a fairway, green, utilize a redan as it should be played etc...  But one the other note I can play a course that may be a bit soft and have a different perception and thought of why it may be like that vs assuming that they are over watering. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Conditioning
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2015, 08:46:16 PM »
Justin,


In NJ wells are monitored and water use from all sources is alloted/restricted.


I've noticed that most golfers complain at the slightest sight of brown-yellow.


While I don't like fall because it means that winter is close behind, the dryer, cooler weather usually results in less water and more F & F, which produces better playing surfaces and more enjoyment for me.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2015, 04:03:46 AM »
Paul

You're being disingenuous.

Read your post again and tell me it is anything other than point scoring by shitting all over my Club with a few rhetorical questions thrown in.


Come now Ryan. If you're going to reference me and throw mud, expect me to similarly consider your own positions. If those positions are evidenced at the place you happen to work at, it's on the agenda, whether that's good, bad or indifferent to your self image.

Paul

You're asking me to evidence your positions, not mine.

I don't share many of the same views. Take a look at your fine golf thread for a bit more detail. Specifically into my own course. When not hectored, I don't actually  mind expressing a view within reason.

Stripes on fairways, I like in a parkland setting. As do most golfers. You're confusing presentation with conditions.  Your tastes are just that.

I think run off areas have become twee, gimmicky and overdone.

If only turf was down solely to a chainsaw and a lawnmower. Inland, try drainage and controlling organic matter. As I said in my original post. Most I know are looking for firmer greens, not softer. There aren't many greenkeepers left who are feed and water merchants. Golfers simply won't put up with the results of this outside of summer.

I don't like flowers on the course. Clubhouse patio, gardens etc, I very much do, in a parkland setting.

Perhaps one day someone will entrust you to actually get involved in managing or improving a golf course. That's unlikely to be anytime soon though, judging by your absolutist rantings on here.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2015, 05:43:11 AM »
Ryan,
 
I haven't asked you to evidence my position, or at least no more than you had implied your position was focused on f&f. All I then did was asked you to support that statement by evidencing that you'd done those basics to promote the running game. That really was all. You however keep returning to a definition of improvement which has nothing to do with architecture and everything to do with the English country garden. I'm now inclined to believe now that when you stated in a thread about conditioning that I thought 'improvement' was a dirty word, you were actually referring to my dislike of superficial window dressing. Fine, but I don't know why you linked it to conditioning. As for patios outside the bar, or maybe at a halfway house, again, fine by me but I'm not sure what that has to do with golf course architecture. At least you've acknowledged, I think, such things have no place on the golf course. Or at least you've acknowledged that as far as flower beds go. If you want to decorate the clubhouse with plants, I'm completely neutral to the idea; apathetic even.
 
I merely want to talk about what best promotes the architecture. If you genuinely think that's a radical position, well, I'm not sure what to say. It's a site dedicated to golf course architecture. The thread is about conditioning. I'll leave it at that.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Justin VanLanduit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2015, 06:50:43 AM »
Justin,


In NJ wells are monitored and water use from all sources is alloted/restricted.


I've noticed that most golfers complain at the slightest sight of brown-yellow.


While I don't like fall because it means that winter is close behind, the dryer, cooler weather usually results in less water and more F & F, which produces better playing surfaces and more enjoyment for me.


We hit a stretch here at the end of a July where we were pretty dry.  I was holding water off as we had our member/member event at the end of the month so we were going firm and fast.  During that week as things dried down we started to see some purple/brown spots and I heard about it.  Actually had people ask me/tell me I needed to water.


Fall is a great time for conditioning.  Days are shorter and the temperatures aren't as extreme.  A lot of Supers utilize the fall to build roots for winter, especially after aerification.  Once we get the grass to recover through that stress it's usually push it a bit with some tough love.  I love fall as I know it's getting closer to doing some fun projects and spending time with friends and families.


Oh, one not to the previous post regarding myself and my peers; we used to brag about how little Nitrogen we were applying to greens and what speeds our greens were.  Now we brag about how little water we use during the year, so we're headed in the right direction.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2015, 09:53:01 AM »
Ryan,
 
I haven't asked you to evidence my position, or at least no more than you had implied your position was focused on f&f. All I then did was asked you to support that statement by evidencing that you'd done those basics to promote the running game. That really was all. You however keep returning to a definition of improvement which has nothing to do with architecture and everything to do with the English country garden. I'm now inclined to believe now that when you stated in a thread about conditioning that I thought 'improvement' was a dirty word, you were actually referring to my dislike of superficial window dressing. Fine, but I don't know why you linked it to conditioning. As for patios outside the bar, or maybe at a halfway house, again, fine by me but I'm not sure what that has to do with golf course architecture. At least you've acknowledged, I think, such things have no place on the golf course. Or at least you've acknowledged that as far as flower beds go. If you want to decorate the clubhouse with plants, I'm completely neutral to the idea; apathetic even.
 
I merely want to talk about what best promotes the architecture. If you genuinely think that's a radical position, well, I'm not sure what to say. It's a site dedicated to golf course architecture. The thread is about conditioning. I'll leave it at that.

Paul

My initial post was in support of Justin's where he correctly stated that most greenkeepers want firmer conditions. He highlighted cycles of maintenance where a golfer could experience something on one day when he is working for a weeks time.

I went on to state that most courses I know of (a vast area of clay) are devoting time and resources to firmer greens in the form of aggressive thatch removal, aeration and drainage. Which contradicts your view that clubs, greenkeepers and golfers want lush soft greens. In my experience they are working towards the opposite.

As for the running game, very few parkland courses are conducive to it and in a normal summer Mother Nature only really allows it for a few weeks at a time if you're lucky. It always amazes me that even on links courses people express surprise (lytham, St Andrews, Bill's recent tour of the west of Scotland etc) when even links courses have conditions where the ball isnt running.

Do firm conditions enhance the architecture? In most cases I would say yes. In some, where there isn't the option to run the ball in, it doesn't. 

What is my club doing? As above, firm and fast is largely beyond our reach. We're aiming for firm.

I've covered width and trees in your fine golf thread.

On Monday we're again using the graden scarifier sand and seed injector as well as a solid tine followed by repeated top dressing.

None of which is aimed at making the greens softer......

Nothing earth shattering. Just good practice. Genuinely improving conditions are rarely as swift or as easy as you make out. 

I read (and read) your position as the top end are ok with you, the entry  level are ok with you. Everywhere in the middle, good, bad and indifferent you have contempt for. These courses should not have been built etc.

You couch this position in the extreme as if their efforts at improvement in terms of conditioning are limited to flowers and fountains. My experience as detailed above is that the vast majority of clubs, good bad and indifferent in terms of architectural merit, contrary to this are all striving for those firmer conditions. It's basic practice in greenkeeping.

Ditto watering: my experience is that particular using mains water, it's bloody expensive. Again it's good practice to use moisture probes and use sparingly, with the caveat that lots of clubs don't have the luxury of the resource to hand water.

I think you need to credit greenkeepers with a little more intelligence. Get to know yours, you'll learn a lot from him.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 09:58:07 AM by Ryan Coles »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Conditioning
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2015, 10:49:42 AM »
I find perceptions vary quite a bit depending on who you talk to.  At my club, I suspect there is universal agreement that fast, firm and brown is the ideal course condition.  At other local clubs, I find more people advocating fast and firm every year and I believe courses are much more firm than they were 10-15 years ago. 
On the other hand, the group I travelled with last weekend likes green - but hated the fact that our drives plugged in the fairways (heavy rains on clay made such conditions inevitable regardless of conditioning practices). 
I suspect customer demand is changing, but it is changing slowly. 
If I am running a golf course I am trying to survive financially.  I am going to do what the customers demand.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Conditioning
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2015, 08:27:25 PM »
Justin,
 
Some clubs lead, others follow and others simply don't get it.
 
You're leading nicely

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