Your Favorite Greens in Chicago

[Aaron Marks]

Jud_T - I thought about mentioning 16 at Ravisloe, but when I think about it, it's not a cool green, it's just a really hard one to hit.  The hole is one of my favorites on the course, but I would say my favorite greens are 2, 3, 6, and 9. 


I think 2 is really underrated and fits that hole perfectly.  The hole rewards being on the inside of the dogleg (left), and the greens left side is tame on the approach from the left side of the fairway, but if you hit it from the right side of the fairway, the ball will fall off a ways to the left... The green's right shelf is hidden behind some nice bunkering and isn't very big.

[Phil McDade]

At Flossmoor, #3 is a terrific green, but I also love the utter simplicity of the tiny 5th green, just a small oval as an extension of the fairway. I also enjoyed the fallaway, front-to-back tilted nature of the 12th and 18th greens -- and agree that the greens at Flossmoor are difficult to read due to subtle breaks and tilts. A terrific set.


Perhaps one criticism of the greens at Beverly -- and it's a pretty mild one, as they too are a terrific set -- is that many of them set up as tilted from back to front, so there is some sameness to them. Mr. Lavin is correct in praising the 5th green; others that caught my attention were the par 3 12th, which tilts toward the pond in the front half and falls off on the backside; the green on the short par 4 14th, which was really hard to read; and the severely tilted green on the long par 3 17th. I'd rather cross 87th street blind-folded at Friday rush-hour than face a putt above the pin on that hole.

[Jon Adkins]

Aaron, good point on No. 2 green at Rav; it definitely fits the hole well and can be tricky to read. I also like No. 5 green, especially when the pin is in the back or front-right, which can make for some fun putts if you're not on the right tier.


Another couple of interesting Ross (or at-one-time-were-Ross) greens down that way are No. 4 and 14 at Calumet.

[Terry Lavin]

Aaron, good point on No. 2 green at Rav; it definitely fits the hole well and can be tricky to read. I also like No. 5 green, especially when the pin is in the back or front-right, which can make for some fun putts if you're not on the right tier.


Another couple of interesting Ross (or at-one-time-were-Ross) greens down that way are No. 4 and 14 at Calumet.

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[J_ Crisham]

My top 8 are: CGC , Old Elm, Shoreacres, Flossmoor , Skokie, Beverly , OFCC South,  Medinah 1 . Year in and year out Flossmoor has had the fastest , firmest greens in Chicago . As far as Bev is concerned there are many tilted greens but the internal contours are very deceptive . You hear a lot about 5, 8, 12, 14, 17, and 18 but the silent killers are 1, 3, 7, 11, 13, 15, and 18. If you fall asleep at the wheel and get out of position a 3 putt is certain. 17 is a potential 4 putt or chip if you get frisky with a first putt. So many great green complexes in Chicago . Other honorable mentions : Evanston, Lake Shore, lost Dunes, Dunes Club, Exmoor, and Glen view Club

[Jason Way]

Great stuff all.  Here are a few more that popped into my mind:


Naperville CC #15 (Steve Forrest) - There is more contour on this green than can be seen from the photo.  The green site and surrounds are really cool.  Definitely a modern throw-back.





Onwentsia #15 - This green is just awesome, and it is enhanced even more by the updates to the surrounding bunkers.





Skokie CC #12 - Not sure if this one is Ross or Langford, but it is big, bold, and beautiful.  Here is Ran's photo from his course tour.

[Matthew Sander]

Jason,


As an aside, what did you think of Naperville? It receives very little chatter here, but I was pleasantly surprised. The conditions (at least the day we played) were impeccable - really firm approaches and they do a great job of keeping the bunker entrances at fairway height. The nature of the property is a big surprise given the general landscape of the surrounding areas.

[Rich Goodale]

Wrigley.  In my dreams....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Been a long time since I golfed in Chicago.....

Back then, I recall being in awe of the Shoreacres greens the first time I played them, so different than anything I had seen up to that point.  On the last visit, of course they looked more like Raynor standard greens, but I have been around a bit since my first play.

I can't recall exact courses anymore, but when remodeling may Chicago courses with Killian and Nugent, some old Roseman and Colt greens influenced me a lot.  Basically, the modern standard was mounds on the inside curves of greens, and these guys did roundish greens, with the humps on the outside curves of the green shape, giving the green skyline a real wavy look. 

What was funny was them looking at the greens where I tried to emulate these from the LZ and liking them, but when we got to the green, they said "Oh, we don't do it this way" and most were changed (Glencoe 15 remains, I think, and it was always one of my favorites of those I designed under their banner)  That kind of contouring, along with using grass bunkers and chocolate drop mounds were two design features that helped me decide to go out on my own.

[BCrosby]

I can't recall exact courses anymore, but when remodeling may Chicago courses with Killian and Nugent, some old Roseman and Colt greens influenced me a lot.  Basically, the modern standard was mounds on the inside curves of greens, and these guys did roundish greens, with the humps on the outside curves of the green shape, giving the green skyline a real wavy look. 

What was funny was them looking at the greens where I tried to emulate these from the LZ and liking them, but when we got to the green, they said "Oh, we don't do it this way" and most were changed (Glencoe 15 remains, I think, and it was always one of my favorites of those I designed under their banner)  That kind of contouring, along with using grass bunkers and chocolate drop mounds were two design features that helped me decide to go out on my own.

Jeff - Very interesting, but I'm not sure I follow re: inside and outside curves. Could you expand?

Bob

[Terry Lavin]

As a set, my top five are Chicago Golf, Flossmoor, Old Elm, Butler and Olympia South.

Terry:


Are you being modest re: Beverly?  You would think that authentic Ross greens would be in the top 5?

Five greens have been altered: 3, 4, 6, 8 and 12.

[Terry Lavin]

Here's a thread from 2011. My list would be different today, but there's plenty of good Chicago gca chatter here.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=47016.0

[Andrew Buck]

Half the clubs in Chicago have been renevated since that thread.

Which is interesting considering how much clubs are "struggling".

[Kevin Lynch]

While many are talking about the Private offerings (or foermer privates, like Ravisloe), a few public greens deserve mention.


One of the wildest greens I've played in recent years was the 4th at Willowhill up in Northbrook.  Dick & Tim Nugent did some great things on that former landfill, and I wasn't really expecting much when my buddy said we'd be playing a 9 hole muni.  The 4th green is the greatest among a pretty neat stretch of greens from the 3rd through the 5th.  I'd even throw in the 2nd green for it's deception from the fairway and neat chipping opportunities.  It's just a bit of a shame how the course is being maintained.  Looking at HistoricAerials, the fairways have severely narrowed and lined by unplayable gunge, which led to a nearly 3 hour nine.  By the time people reach some of these cool greens, they've lost any desire to play golf.


I'd also give a little love to the 13th at the Highlands of Elgin.  However, my fond memories of the green may be influenced by how much I enjoyed the entire hole.


As a few people have mentioned, the 2nd green at Ravisloe was one of my favorites of the day.  I really wasn't as impressed with the 16th as others seem to be, but I may just have poor recollection from one play.


It's interesting that not a single person has mentioned a green at Cog Hill Dubsdread.  But when the constant severe bunkering gives the greens a homogeneous feel, it isn't as surprising. 

[Jason Way]

Jason,

As an aside, what did you think of Naperville? It receives very little chatter here, but I was pleasantly surprised. The conditions (at least the day we played) were impeccable - really firm approaches and they do a great job of keeping the bunker entrances at fairway height. The nature of the property is a big surprise given the general landscape of the surrounding areas.

I agree, especially about the bunker treatments - very cool.  The new routing seems to be an improvement over photos I've seen of Bendelow's original.  I think it's a great every day members course.  My only beef would be that it has some great old specimen hardwoods, as well as those little stands of Hawthorn trees which I have never seen anywhere else, and they aren't highlighted because the place is over-treed. 


Quite a few cool greens, so to return to the topic at hand, here is another one from Naperville - the wonderful Par 3 7th. 

[Jason Way]

Here is a Dan Moore pic of the 16th at Ravisloe for those who have not seen it (like me).  Anyone have a good pic of the 2nd, or any of the others from Ravisloe that have been mentioned?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Chicago's Leven, Short, and Punchbowl.

[Jason Way]

Here is #3 at Flossmoor - the Judge's pick:

[Terry Lavin]

Chicago's Leven, Short, and Punchbowl.

I will affirm the rectitude of this judgment!⛳️

[Jeff_Brauer]

I can't recall exact courses anymore, but when remodeling may Chicago courses with Killian and Nugent, some old Roseman and Colt greens influenced me a lot.  Basically, the modern standard was mounds on the inside curves of greens, and these guys did roundish greens, with the humps on the outside curves of the green shape, giving the green skyline a real wavy look. 

What was funny was them looking at the greens where I tried to emulate these from the LZ and liking them, but when we got to the green, they said "Oh, we don't do it this way" and most were changed (Glencoe 15 remains, I think, and it was always one of my favorites of those I designed under their banner)  That kind of contouring, along with using grass bunkers and chocolate drop mounds were two design features that helped me decide to go out on my own.

Jeff - Very interesting, but I'm not sure I follow re: inside and outside curves. Could you expand?

Bob

Bob,

Picture a peanut shaped green, pinched (with inside curves) at the middle.  The typical modern green places surrounding mounds at the pinch points, in this case, a mound on either side of the middle of the green. Then, the green edge remains fairly flat as it goes around the mound.

What I noticed about Colt greens was that on the same shape, the surrounding mounds might be placed at the ends of the green, giving the green edge a more natural rise and dip, or flow, rather than flat.  Overall, it makes for a more pleasing green.

BTW, same style generally applies to fairways. Another aha moment for me was Pete Dye telling me he does the same on fairways - rather than curve the edge line around a series of mounds, in and out, he lays his fairway edge line out straight, and it flows with the rises and falls of any contouring.  It is a very pleasing look compared to going around the mounds, which looks okay in plan view, but often ends up looking like "Sharks teeth" from the tee. Those gentle plan curves always look sharper at ground level, and they get pointy looking, not curvy looking.


Hard to use words to describe a visual event......Naperville 7 green above is a good example of the outside mound affect and how the green edge on the left appears to be very rolling.  The pic of Flossmor 3 sort of shows how a level fairway edge going around objects (in this case a bunker, rather than a mound) looks like a pretty sharp curve.

[Adam Clayman]

Big Run use to have an amazing variety in a set of greens. Partly because the owners kept hiring someone different to change or make new ones. They're probably all ruined now that greens speeds have reached stupidity. I was always partial to #7 until Timmy Nugent Mal practiced the chit out it. But #'s 6 ,9,11 & 14 all had great movement and their own uniqueness.

Since you're all a bunch of belt notch'ers I'll throw in  #3 & #6 at Waveland (Marovitz) too. hich comes as close at it get's to Rihc's Wrigley request.

[David_Moorhead]

To give the North side some love, I'd say 15 at Pine Meadow is solid.  It's a deep green with a narrow front tier and runs distinctly uphill to the larger back tier.  On an uphill, dogleg left par 5, it really makes you want to be on the correct tier.  The conditions at Pine Meadow, though better this year than in the past, will never rival those of the greens at Flossmoor, Beverly, or some of the others mentioned earlier.

A couple of you mentioned 16 at Ravisloe.  Does anyone know if that is the original design?  It always feels very different than all of the other greens on the course.  It is the only one that tilts front to back, but the bunkers are farther off the green and it feels more open/exposed than any other green.  Just curious.

[Aaron Marks]

Jason - here is Rav #2 (All pictures taken from:http://chicagogolfcentral.com/2011/02/09/ravisloe-country-club/ go to the original url for full sized pictures!)




A good drive will leave you looking at this second shot.  There is not a lot of space left and the easier, less risky shot is to go out to the right.



another view from a bit farther up
 


If I remember correctly, the bunker on the right of this photo is ~150 out. 





Pretty obvious why you'd want to be on the left side of the fairway here. Anything not covered by that bunker is going move pretty hard left, and end up in the chipping area.



Another view of the green





BONUS - hole #6 green

[Jeff_Brauer]

That green looks domed, sort of like the Pinehurst greens that had been heavily top dressed and dragged in on a circular motion for too many years.

You guys can say what you like, but I was always taught that the domed green is terrible design!  Also, if you play safe left of the carry bunkers and the ball won't hold the green, what is the sense of having that safer run up area?  April Fools all year?

[Aaron Marks]

Jeff - you can use the left side of the green to run it up, but you have to be on the left side of the fairway for this to work. Regardless of the angle in, the left 10% of that green will send you skittering off.  \


edit - the green is domed (that back right portion is not, but in general you are right), but in my opinion the green works.  It wouldn't work on a long par 4, but on a short by 5 I do like it.