Pine Needles Changing to Bermuda Greens

[Philip Hensley]

Pine Needles just sent out a newsletter to members announcing that they are changing the greens to one of the ultra-dwarf Bermuda grasses next summer.


"As a result of the intense heat this summer and especially after seeing the success of the bermuda grass
greens at Mid Pines, we have decided to convert the greens at Pine Needles to bermuda next summer (2016).
We have not decided yet which of the new "ultra-dwarfs" (Champion, Mini Verdi or Tif Eagle) we will be
using at Pine Needles but will make that decision in the coming few months. We believe that bermuda greens
are an integral part of helping us achieve the overall design philosophy of Donald Ross as it allows for firmer
surfaces on a year-round basis. While the winters are a bit more challenging when extended low temperatures
require us to cover the greens at night, we feel the benefits of having outstanding bermuda greens in the summer
far outweigh this winter inconvenience."


I like the contrast between the two green types right across the street from one another, especially in the Spring and Fall when the bent grass greens at Pine Needles are firm and fast. But the recent summers in North Carolina have been brutal for bent grass greens (as evidenced by a large number of courses in the Triangle area going to Bermuda), so this is probably for the better.


Does anyone notice any major playing differences between Mini Verde vs. Champion vs. Tif Eagle? I was hoping they would do a different Bermuda than Mini Verde since they have it at Mid Pines but I don't have enough experience playing on the other kinds to know if it really matters.

[Philip Hensley]

Another positive is that they won't have to do a full greens aeration this fall or in the spring. They are only planning on doing small spike aeration.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Philip,
Why would you prefer a different Bermuda?


I've never noticed a playing difference from grass to grass, although I've never seen greens maintained the same from one course to another either.


I've seen a test green planted with each of the three varieties.
There was a slight color difference, but I'd let each environment choose.
I'm surprised they announced that they were still deciding.

[Matt MacIver]

I played #3 and 5 last weekend and the greens were absolutely fantastic, especially #3. I don't what type of Bermuda but I couldn't get the repair tool in more than half way it was so firm, and the ball rolled so true. I think Thistle Du has the same greens.


#8 still has bent and it showed poorly compared to the others.

[Philip Hensley]

Philip,
Why would you prefer a different Bermuda?

I like having 2 distinct playing surfaces that react differently and require different types of shot making.

But I recognize that keeping bent grass greens has become harder and harder in the area. I was curious if anyone has noticed a difference in the way different ultra dwarf Bermudas play.

[Matt MacIver]

I just went to the excellent Pinehurst Resort website, and stand corrected.


#3 and 8 have Champion Ultradrawf greens; 3 was in top shape and 8, a few miles down the road, was average.


#5 has Penn G-2 greens, and was in between the two in terms of firmness and true roll.


But that was only one weekend, in August. But whatever they're doing to/at #3, they need to do more, though I appreciate the comment about variety especially at a nine course report.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I just went to the excellent Pinehurst Resort website, and stand corrected.


#3 and 8 have Champion Ultradrawf greens; 3 was in top shape and 8, a few miles down the road, was average.


#5 has Penn G-2 greens, and was in between the two in terms of firmness and true roll.


But that was only one weekend, in August. But whatever they're doing to/at #3, they need to do more, though I appreciate the comment about variety especially at a nine course report.

Matt,

I was there in late July and #4 is bent grass.

I found #8's greens to roll quite well, but lightning fast and hard. Much faster than #2.

[David_Madison]

Phil,


I've found that Mini Verde tends to be a bit coarser than Champions, and seems to work well with more rugged terrain. And I think you'll agree that it is very well suited for Mid-Pines.


Champions seems to be a finer bladed grass and I believe a better match for "softer" courses or those with more of a classic country club type of feel. Governors Club and I believe Old Chatham are a couple of examples in our Triangle, NC area. I think that's what Sedgefield has as well.


I wouldn't be surprised if PN uses Champions, but the folks who run the place are pros and no doubt they'll do the right thing so that the playing characteristics of the grass are the best possible match for the course.

[Philip Hensley]

I agree. The local semi-private club I just resigned at had Mini Verde as well, and there was a vast difference in the way it played depending on how much maintenance they were able to do in a given week. When greens were mowed (sometimes on Friday they would even double mow) and rolled, the surface ran very true and slick. When the weren't, it had that very coarse look and effect that you are talking about.


Old Chatham is Champion.


I'm confident they will get the right match.

[BCowan]

Duke is champion.  I prefer champion

[David_Madison]

Ben,


I agree that as an isolated item, Champion is probably offers a better pure putting surface. But I don't think that it would fit Mid-Pines as well as Mini Verde. I like the roughness of the look and feel of the surfaces there, versus the smoothness of comparable quality Champion greens. It's almost as if Champion would be too fine (and refined) for Mid-Pines.

[Jay Mickle]

Pine Needles with less internal contour would seem to benefit most from faster greens than MP. Is there a difference and would it be relevant up to say a 12 stimp?

[BCowan]

I just think it's great that MP plays firm year round with bermuda. I understand what ur talking about and u maybe right.


 I hope that PN does tree removal around greens.  1 and 2 particularly. 

Jay,

At 12 on the stimp I'd be putting off the green on 5.

[Philip Hensley]

Old Chatham has Champion, and members there claim to have stimps 12 and up depending on time of year. I'm definitely not a stimp whore but PN greens play better in the non-summer months when they are F&F.

[David_Madison]

Pine Needles with greens running anything much over 10 would have very minimal cupping areas. Maybe there isn't a ton of internal contour as there is over at Mid-Pines, but many of the greens have a lot of overall tilt running with the surrounding terrain, and at high speeds you couldn't keep a ball on much of the surface areas. Besides, with the majority of the play coming from resort guests who wouldn't know the greens and the prevailing slopes (for example, it takes a few plays to realize that the second green tilts from front to back starting about 30% of the way on), it would render play tedious and painful and add hours to the typical round.

[Jay Mickle]

Agreed that anything over 11 would be too tough for everyday play. I was interested in higher green speeds as I expect that Pine Needles will host a Women's US Open again.   

[David_Madison]

Jay - Great point about a Women's Open. But still, at 11+ I suspect that it could be a real problem finding five different cupping locations  on a number of the greens, especially anything at all edgy. Those greens weren't designed for serious speed. But they were designed for serious firmness, so the bermuda, whatever they select, will be a wonderful enhancement.