I had an interesting conversation today

[Patrick_Mucci]

about a course that I feel is a terrific golf course.
 
The course held a charity outing for a charity that I'm involved with.
It was the first time that this charity was hosted by this course.
 
I couldn't play, but attended the cocktail reception and dinner.
 
At the cocktail reception a number of us were talking about the course and a fellow said to me.
 
"I was shocked at how poorly conditioned this course is"
 
So, I said, "What do you mean ?"
 
He said, "Well the greens were hard and your ball rolled when it hit the green, and the fairways were also hard and your ball rolled after it landed."
 
He went on to say that the course looked "ratty" that there was greenish/yellowish/brownish colors in the fairway and rough.
 
I sat there, not stunned, but somewhat surprised about this fellows idea of what constitutes ideal playing surfaces.
 
Is this what we're up against.
 
The green, green grass of TV ?
 
I tried to explain the benefit of ideal playing surfaces, roll and firm and fast.
 
Some he appeared to agree with (read more distance), but, I felt that his idea of ideal playing surfaces were lush, deep green, soft conditions.
 
How can playing surfaces be improved if TV continues to show lush green conditions every week ?

[Steve Salmen]

Pat, one man's trash..... I guess it holds for gca as well.

[John Kavanaugh]

I played a member/guest this weekend at a drought induced very firm course. After three days of hitting off concrete my elbow is shot. After three days of a cart ride through the baja my back is broken. Playing golf as a contact sport is fun for a day but can wear an old man out over time.

[Carl Johnson]

. . . How can playing surfaces be improved if TV continues to show lush green conditions every week ?

Can't be . . . but then different strokes for different folks.  Us f and f'ers need to give it up.

[John Kavanaugh]

The courses on TV are both green and firm and fast. It's possible to have both at great expense. To give credit where credit is due...our new Super at Victoria National gets it done day after day. He has proven that it can be done just like on TV.


Note:  I only played one day this year when the green side fans were in use. I love this guy. The moral of the story is that the problem lays more in the talent of the Super than the ignorance of the member.

[Jason Thurman]

At the cocktail reception a number of us were talking about the course and a fellow said to me.
 
"I was shocked at how poorly conditioned this course is"
 
So, I said, "What do you mean ?"
 
He said, "Well the greens were hard and your ball rolled when it hit the green, and the fairways were also hard and your ball rolled after it landed."

It sounds like his primary issue wasn't that the course didn't look like one from TV, but that he instead didn't care for the way the course played. I know a lot of guys who want their ball to stay in the fairway when they hit one of its edges and who want their greens to be "receptive" to even the most thinly-struck of approach shots. Whether you're talking about politics or golf, there are an awful lot of people who want to benefit themselves first and foremost even if it means dumbing things down for everyone else.

[JESII]

It's possible to have both at great expense.


..........


The moral of the story is that the problem lays more in the talent of the Super than the ignorance of the member.

And an unlimited budget...

[Rob Marshall]

"He went on to say that the course looked "ratty" that there was greenish/yellowish/brownish colors in the fairway and rough."

That fairway description sounds like dead poa. That's a big problem at our club. Too much thatch and the roots haven't gone deep. They look like crap and they are far from firm and fast.......Our new Super is going to hit them hard with verticutting and plugging this fall. Seems like a very knowledgeable guy. He was an assistant at Westchester CC last year.

Your point is well taken, It's hard for people to understand that some brown is not a bad thing.

[JESII]

How can playing surfaces be improved if TV continues to show lush green conditions every week ?

In my opinion, people need to experience it fairly frequently and they'll realize all of the benefits.


It is, no doubt, a difficult cycle. We've had an incredibly dry 4 or 6 weeks here in Philadelphia and I can just about guarantee that a great percentage of clubs touting firm and fast are green and soft today.


Not many ever really get green and firm because the point of putting water down is to keep the grass alive, so why underestimate the perfect amount.


I'm always amazed and impressed when I watch a Tour event and one of the guys hits a drive on a par five that rolls about 65 yards then their five iron from 215 splatters all over the green.


The PGA Tour is a show...the sooner each decision making body within a club realizes that, the better.

[BCrosby]

Pat -


Your conversation was much like many I had after the USO at P2 in 2014. People were shocked at the course's "terrible" conditioning and "ugly" look. Trying to explain to them the reasons for the set-up seemed to make little difference. Reactions were generally NIMBY.


There is a long way to go.


Bob

[David_Tepper]

"2014 US Open: Donald Trump rips Pinehurst's 'horrible look'"

http://www.cbssports.com/golf/eye-on-golf/24589308/us-open-donald-trump-rips-pinehursts-horrible-look

"That is not what golf is about."

[John Kavanaugh]

I have yet to meet all these stupid golfers you guys seem to know.  As a matter of fact the problem lies in the fact that people in charge of maintenance believe, like most of you, that golfers are stupid.  Once you believe that golfers are stupid you believe that they will only accept one thing....green.  Pour on the water, crank up the fans and build new drainage to support your irrigation.  It's a perfect formula to keep your job until the next higher paying gig makes an offer.  No one gets hurt cause the members are too stupid to know better.


No one provides an exciting product when they assume the customer is stupid.

[Jim Hoak]

Pat, yes, that is what we're up against.
But I do think it is improving.  Without taking a scientific poll, I believe there is an increasing number of golfers who get it--especially here in California, where the drought is critical.
This attitude is why I defend the USGA's decision to hold the Open at Chambers Bay.  They tried to showcase what golf going forward is going to look like.  Yes, they made several mistakes at the Open, but the USGA gets it that water is the biggest issue facing US golf.  And it's great that an increasing number of golfers like us actually prefer the firm, fast, yellow-brown look.

[BCrosby]

Jim -


It's not just water, it's also over-use of fertilizer and crazy maintenance budgets. All of which are pushing up the price of golf, with long term consequences which - if not checked - will not be pretty.


On a website devoted to golf architecture, it is worth repeating that the best ideas about how to deal with such things on new courses come from old courses.


Bob






 

[Peter Pallotta]

Good posts, from various perspectives.
 
I think that what's needed is to meet people where they are, and not to preach to them from on high or from a position of presumed enlightenment. (It reminds me of the old rabbi who was asked why so few people experienced God: "Because so few people are willing to stoop that low").
 
Peter
 

 

[Joe Hancock]

I've learned a lot over the years, and one of the best learning opportunities I had was being a superintendent at a semi-private club in NC that had zero fairway irrigation fixtures...none. The grass lived, and was very playable. I was there 6 seasons, and never had grass die.

The UK does it all the time. Nothing new under the sun except for amounts of money and technology and egos.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,
 
Let's not forget that the superintendent is an employee of the club, and as such, he gets his marching orders from the President/Board/Green Chairman.
 
Rarely does a superintendent act independent of all three.
 
I've been present when a green chairman instructed a superintendent that he wanted the course to be, "very lush with a deep green color"
 
I've also had superintendents call me to tell me that their green chairman had directed them to get the greens to 11+, despite summer heat.
 
The issue transcends the superintendent, but, he's often a significant player.
 
My advice to superintendents is as follows:
 
"I've seen the head professional, manager, chef, superintendent and other employees dismissed from the club.
 
I've yet to see a President, Board Member or Green Chairman dismissed from the club.
 
Be advised accordingly"

[Andrew Buck]

I have yet to meet all these stupid golfers you guys seem to know.  As a matter of fact the problem lies in the fact that people in charge of maintenance believe, like most of you, that golfers are stupid.  Once you believe that golfers are stupid you believe that they will only accept one thing....green.  Pour on the water, crank up the fans and build new drainage to support your irrigation.  It's a perfect formula to keep your job until the next higher paying gig makes an offer.  No one gets hurt cause the members are too stupid to know better.


No one provides an exciting product when they assume the customer is stupid.

I do have to say you are the luckiest member of the site.  Not only have you avoided all stupid golfers, but you also are fortunate enough to often have a recent anecdotal experience that allows you to express a contrarian view to most of the threads posted. 

[John Kavanaugh]

At my age it's more the nature of natural selection than luck that my golfing friends aren't stupid. I am however very lucky that Victoria National is in the best condition since its inception.

[Jeff Bergeron]

It's the ANGC syndrome. The Masters has established an unrealistic, expensive and unsustainable benchmark. Golden age courses which play firm and fast and allow the ground game work great for players of all abilities. Sadly, most modern designs require golf to be played through the air favoring the accomplished player.

[Adam Clayman]

It's not the TV's fault. It's the game mind of the players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

How do you think the players acquired that "game mind" ?

The influence of TV ?


It's not the TV's fault. It's the game mind of the players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I don't see the disconnect between Golden Age designs and Modern designs in terms of the aerial and ground game.

I think the difference is at the maintenance end and not the design end.

[Richard Hetzel]

The masses just are not educated. My wife and played a 1920's country club (turned public) near Dayton, Ohio this weekend. With the exception of MOST of the fairways and the greens, the course was pretty brown, which considering the amount of rain Ohio had this summer was cool. It will take a TON of education to make people understand about conditioning. I'll take the drier fairways, I need all the ROLL I can get!

[John Kavanaugh]

I have played golf now for 47 years and have never heard a fellow member say that he expects the course where we are playing to look like ANGC. The Augusta syndrome is a myth.