Keiser To Build in Scotland?

[Joe Zucker]

JZ

In my experience, Bandon is considerably more difficult to get to than GB&I from the east coast  and if you include lodging at Bandon I have found that a week overseas costs me about the same as 4 days at Bandon.

Hm, that has not been my experience.   I would guess Bandon is more accessible that Scotland for the average American who doesn't live in the Northeast, even if you fly into Portland.

[Jonathan Mallard]

JZ

In my experience, Bandon is considerably more difficult to get to than GB&I from the east coast  and if you include lodging at Bandon I have found that a week overseas costs me about the same as 4 days at Bandon.

Hm, that has not been my experience.  We must be taking different kinds of trips to Scotland.  I would guess Bandon is more accessible that Scotland for the average American who doesn't live in the Northeast, even if you fly into Portland.

There was a separate thread noting that a major domestic carrier is now offering 2 flights/week into North Bend from Denver. Not much data yet, but I suspect this has got to change the reality, and subsequently the perception on difficulty of access.

[Rich Goodale]

JZ

In my experience, Bandon is considerably more difficult to get to than GB&I from the east coast  and if you include lodging at Bandon I have found that a week overseas costs me about the same as 4 days at Bandon.

Hm, that has not been my experience.  We must be taking different kinds of trips to Scotland.  I would guess Bandon is more accessible that Scotland for the average American who doesn't live in the Northeast, even if you fly into Portland.

Actually, ~15% of the US population lives on the West Coast and ~30% on the East Coast.  Getting to Bandon is a bitch even from the West Coast, unless you happen to live in Coos Bay....

[Rees Milikin]

JZ

In my experience, Bandon is considerably more difficult to get to than GB&I from the east coast  and if you include lodging at Bandon I have found that a week overseas costs me about the same as 4 days at Bandon.

Hm, that has not been my experience.  We must be taking different kinds of trips to Scotland.  But most people in the US don't live on the east coast, so I would guess Bandon is still more accessible that Scotland for the average American, even if you fly into Portland.

The U.S. population has a large concentration on the east coast. 

Also, a direct flight from NYC to Scotland is almost the same length of time as a direct flight to Portland, but driving to say St Andrews is significantly closer than Bandon.

If the prices were identical, being an east coast guy, I would rather go to Scotland than Bandon.

[BCowan]

The point of going across the pond is to experience a different culture.

[David_Tepper]

Ru -

Do you (or anyone else) have an idea of how many visitor rounds have been played at Askernish over the past couple of years?

DT

[Joe Zucker]

There are a lot of people in the US who do not live on a coast.  I think Bandon is more accessible from Texas or Chicago, which have a lot of people.

But back to the original point.  Bandon is not Scotland.  It's awesome links golf in the US, but it's not the culture Ben mentioned or the great history of the game.  I would hope no one would go to Bandon and think they have seen all links golf has to offer.  As I said earlier, hopefully it gives people a taste of how much fun it is and makes them book another trip across the pond, regardless of how far the flight it.

[Adam Lawrence]

There are a lot of people in the US who do not live on a coast.  I think Bandon is more accessible from Texas or Chicago, which have a lot of people.

But back to the original point.  Bandon is not Scotland.  It's awesome links golf in the US, but it's not the culture Ben mentioned or the great history of the game.  I would hope no one would go to Bandon and think they have seen all links golf has to offer.  As I said earlier, hopefully it gives people a taste of how much fun it is and makes them book another trip across the pond, regardless of how far the flight it.

Chicago, I dunno. You can fly nonstop from O'Hare to Edinburgh. Can't get to North Bend without changing. Marginal.

[Ru Macdonald]

BCD - Yes spot on yet so many spend their time in the Fairmont or on a coach..


DT - wow that is some question. I would suspect less than 500 but will check.

[Phil McDade]

Ru -

Do you (or anyone else) have an idea of how many visitor rounds have been played at Askernish over the past couple of years?

DT

Hmmm......100?


David: Perhaps a bit unfair, as playing Askernish means getting on a boat, and getting to a harbor with a boat, all of which take time in that corner of Scotland.


I am a little bemused at the notion here that Durness or nearby environs aren't somehow remote. Durness is as remote as it gets while still staying on the big island of the U.K. It is a haul to get there from Inverness, much less Glasgow or Edinburgh.


I think what is forgotten in these debates is how unique Bandon is to the United States, compared to what is available in the U.K. and even Scotland. Bandon is sui generis here -- probably the only true links experience one can have (save for a few small outposts) in the United States, and it's by all accounts extremely well done (both the golf and the experience). If one is traveling overseas to Scotland (or the greater U.K., or Ireland), there are an abundance of choices.  The traveling golfer faced with staying stateside or traveling overseas has numerous options -- Fife, the Ayrshire coast, Edinburgh and surrounds, Dornoch, the northeast coast (Aberdeen, Cruden Bay and others) -- full of very good links golf before even considering what's available in England, Ireland, and elsewhere.

[David_Tepper]

"David: Perhaps a bit unfair, as playing Askernish means getting on a boat, and getting to a harbor with a boat, all of which take time in that corner of Scotland."

Phil M. -

I am well aware of what it takes to get to Askernish (and also what it takes to get to Durness ). No doubt the former is even more remote than the later.

I asked the question simply to get a sense of what the level of visitor play has been there. The course has been very well received and most of the publicity it has generated has been very positive. Is that enough to overcome such a remote location?

DT

[Adam Lawrence]

Ru -

Do you (or anyone else) have an idea of how many visitor rounds have been played at Askernish over the past couple of years?

DT

Hmmm......100?


David: Perhaps a bit unfair, as playing Askernish means getting on a boat, and getting to a harbor with a boat, all of which take time in that corner of Scotland.

One should note that a flight to Benbecula takes less than an hour from Glasgow. From there it's less than twenty minutes drive to Askernish.


But the basic point, that it's not somewhere you're going to happen across, is well made.

[Jud_T]

I am a little bemused at the notion here that Durness or nearby environs aren't somehow remote. Durness is as remote as it gets while still staying on the big island of the U.K. It is a haul to get there from Inverness, much less Glasgow or Edinburgh.

I think what is forgotten in these debates is how unique Bandon is to the United States, compared to what is available in the U.K. and even Scotland. Bandon is sui generis here -- probably the only true links experience one can have (save for a few small outposts) in the United States, and it's by all accounts extremely well done (both the golf and the experience). If one is traveling overseas to Scotland (or the greater U.K., or Ireland), there are an abundance of choices.  The traveling golfer faced with staying stateside or traveling overseas has numerous options -- Fife, the Ayrshire coast, Edinburgh and surrounds, Dornoch, the northeast coast (Aberdeen, Cruden Bay and others) -- full of very good links golf before even considering what's available in England, Ireland, and elsewhere.

Phil,


This is an interesting point for me.  While I agree that I don't go to GB&I to play high end modern resort courses as we have plenty of those at home, and while I might sneak in 1 round on a Castle Stuart, I go primarily to play what we don't have at home, i.e. old school quirky links.  Having said that, based on what I've seen thus far, I wouldn't bet against Mr. Keiser's golf developments anywhere on the planet.

[James Boon]

Plenty of talk of Durness, so here is a link to some photos:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58483.0.html


The dunes on the other side of the bay look fantastic but perhaps a little too wild for a decent course?


It's remote but well worth a trip if you are there, but I understand if you are on a golf trip that it's a lot of travel (all be it through stunning scenery) to just get to a fun quirky nine hole course and when I went there I wasn't even planning on playing, it just seemed rude not too...


Cheers,


James

[jeffwarne]

I am a little bemused at the notion here that Durness or nearby environs aren't somehow remote. Durness is as remote as it gets while still staying on the big island of the U.K. It is a haul to get there from Inverness, much less Glasgow or Edinburgh.

I think what is forgotten in these debates is how unique Bandon is to the United States, compared to what is available in the U.K. and even Scotland. Bandon is sui generis here -- probably the only true links experience one can have (save for a few small outposts) in the United States, and it's by all accounts extremely well done (both the golf and the experience). If one is traveling overseas to Scotland (or the greater U.K., or Ireland), there are an abundance of choices.  The traveling golfer faced with staying stateside or traveling overseas has numerous options -- Fife, the Ayrshire coast, Edinburgh and surrounds, Dornoch, the northeast coast (Aberdeen, Cruden Bay and others) -- full of very good links golf before even considering what's available in England, Ireland, and elsewhere.

Phil,


This is an interesting point for me.  While I agree that I don't go to GB&I to play high end modern resort courses as we have plenty of those at home, and while I might sneak in 1 round on a Castle Stuart, I go primarily to play what we don't have at home, i.e. old school quirky links.  Having said that, based on what I've seen thus far, I wouldn't bet against Mr. Keiser's golf developments anywhere on the planet.

If i ever make it out to Durness, I'm going to be pissed if I'm behind a group of Americans, or Germans for that matter (see Rossapena) out for an emergency 9 from a new development
Headed back to Donegal next we for some real golf

[Thomas Dai]

Headed back to Donegal next we for some real golf

Donegal is a buzzing metropolis in comparison with Durness and district. ......and some of the unused dune areas in Donegal make the one across the bay from Durness GC seem tiny.


Cruit, Gweedore and Otway by any chance?


Atb

[jeffwarne]

Headed back to Donegal next we for some real golf

Donegal is a buzzing metropolis in comparison with Durness and district. ......and some of the unused dune areas in Donegal make the one across the bay from Durness GC seem tiny.


Cruit, Gweedore and Otway by any chance?


Atb

correct with Portnoo, Dunfanaghy,Portsalon, Northwest, Ballyliffin x2, and Greencastle thrown in for good measure.
Speaking of Metropolises-couldn't get lodging in Dunfanaghy(which must be buzzing) so we're in Gortahork

[Thomas Dai]

Jeff,


That's a very fine itinerary. Very envious indeed


I suspect the reason you can't lodge in Dunfanaghy is because they hold a music festival there every September which I've heard means the area gets really busy.


Enjoy!


Atb

[James Brown]

Ru -

There's remote and then there's remote. As I am sure you will agree, anywhere near Durness is very much the later.

There is a nice stretch of linksland north of Embo to Loch Fleet, but I have no idea who owns it or what its status is regarding development.

DT

I was in Dornoch in August and on my first drive to Golspie, I drove through Embo and past that stretch of links land and it really looked great, to the point where I was looking for golf holes.  Dornoch has a full tee sheet from mid July to the end of August.  But Golspie, Tain, and Brora are all within 20 miles and never crowded.  Not to mention Skibo, which is right next door and vacant. 

[RJ_Daley]

One would hope that Keiser would use some fine and thrifty Scot to plot a working marketing model to more closely match the spending attitudes of the locals, than follow the billionaire golf impresarios that are chipping away at golf developments on the old sod.  I don't know a thing about it as things are really on the ground there, but this is strictly impressions one gets reading this and that. 

I do wonder however, if one is spending whatever it takes to go from points in U.S. or other countries that have destinations of considerable great golf reputations and a high price tag; why would one want to pay the same high premium to go to Scotland premium resorts when we see all these more authentic links of lesser prestige yet enough of purely links Scot or Irish atmosphere for a more economical cost to play?    And Aussie can take a cheap flight to Launceston to get to Barneygoogles, or higher internal US can fly to Bandon, Nova, Whistling, Pinehurst, soon Sand Valley, and various other resorts and play high end costly, yet great golf, or they can fly to Scotland, and play more affordable and arguably more authentic golf.   

It seems to me Jeff Warne has the right idea.   

[David_Tepper]

"than follow the billionaire golf impresarios that are chipping away at golf developments on the old sod."

RJ Daley -

Don't forget that Scotland is the home of the ritzy, high-end golf resort (i.e. Gleneagles, Turnberry, etc.). The notion that all golf in Scotland is historically thrifty and local is not quite correct.

DT

[James Boon]

One thing that is obvious about most of the new courses built recently in Scotland is that they are near (relatively speaking) to the classic links that are going to be the main attraction for most:

Castle Stuart = Royal Dornoch & Nairn
Kingsbarns = St Andrews etc
Mach Dunes = Machrihanish
Renaissance = Muirfield & North Berwick
etc

This means that I imagine they will often be an add on to a "once in a lifetime" type trip or an occasional change for the "more regular visitor" and therefore still get a decent amount of play.

I'm not sure a course at Durness, the Outer Hebrides or wherever is going to be able to work as a destination type resort on its own, with so many other classic links destinations already in existence. Now if a new course in a remote location is built as a rich persons plaything or a philanthropic gift to the locals, then that sounds ideal (and is the grand plan when I win the lottery  ) but as a successful business / destination I'm not sure it could work?

Cheers,

James

[Niall C]

James


As posted earlier I think environmental issues makes it a non-starter but agree with your premis that it's too remote for anything other than a low key Askernish type development. Another CS or Kingsbarns type development isn't likely to work in that location although undoubtedly it would likely raise the profile of both Wick and Reay making them the new Brora  [size=78%].[/size]


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

No one in their right mind would build a high quality golf course near Durness, it must be 3 hours from any airport by car, those roads are single file in places. It must be somewhere else he has in mind.

[Ally Mcintosh]

No one in their right mind would build a high quality golf course near Durness, it must be 3 hours from any airport by car, those roads are single file in places. It must be somewhere else he has in mind.

Agree. Embo makes a lot more sense though.