What major city does not have a great golf course?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Gary,


How do you define "great" on the Doak Scale? I'll say 7 and above.






7. An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.
[/size]8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.
[/size]9. An outstanding course—certainly one of the best in the world—with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life.
[/size]10. Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Call your travel agent—immediately.

[BCowan]

I'd say Grand Rapids, MI.  Many solid public tracks though and the Breweries more than make up for it. 

[Jamey Bryan]

 Chris:
 
Not to threadjack, but you got me thinking more about why Atlanta doesn’t have numerous highly regarded courses.  I could only come up with the following:
 
 During golf’s Golden Age, Atlanta’s most prominent clubs were the Driving Club, Capital City Club, and the Athletic Club.  Of these, Bobby Jones and the Athletic Club dominated the local golf profile and it can’t be argued that East Lake was not a great course.  The Driving Club, for a variety of reasons, didn’t think golf was necessary to their operation.  Capital City’s Brookhaven course, while a very nice members’ course, was simply not a championship layout.  Other clubs, Druid Hills comes especially to mind, were overshadowed by the reverence given (and due) Bobby Jones.

• Atlanta’s greatest population growth began with golf architecture’s “Dark Ages” and followed Bobby Jones’ development of the outstanding Peachtree Golf Club.  The city’s growth was to the north, leaving the old Atlanta center to deteriorate.  The Athletic Club decided to abandon East Lake, building a new facility in Alpharetta and taking the relationship with the USGA with it (though not successfully developing a facility with significant architectural interest to complement its’ tournament difficulty).
• The higher profile clubs which were established/grown during Atlanta’s early growth tended to have a heavy real estate component accompanying the golf facilities.  Cherokee (established in the mid to late 50’s) got a very good deal on it’s golf property from a developer who then developed the peripheral areas (there’s little to no internal housing, but a lot bordering).  Atlanta Country Club (which I think is better than its current rankings) was developed to attract a PGA event but somehow lacks the pizzazz to elevate it to the “Great” level.  They, and a number of other courses from this era, are nice facilities but are not in the elite category (BTW, I think Rivermont unfairly gets lumped into this grouping).
• There are a number of newer fairly high profile courses which I either haven’t seen or which I’ve only played once or twice so I’m hesitant to comment on whether they missed their mark or not….   Capital City Crabapple seemed on my one play similar to the Athletic Club in that it is very difficult but not particularly interesting from an architectural standpoint.  I haven’t seen Ansley’s Settindown course, but most of my friends seem to prefer playing downtown.  It does seem that the Driving Club may have missed an opportunity for a “Great” course.  I’ve enjoyed my rounds there, but there are a few holes which left me scratching my head wondering why Rees Jones did what he did.  The property is expansive and interesting, I’d love to see what other archies might have done there.

 
In summary, I think Atlanta had the bad luck to grow rapidly and add the most of its courses during periods which did not encourage building of great courses.  There is an abundance of high quality golf, but not that much which approaches great.
 
Jamey
 

[Tim_Weiman]

Cleveland is an under rated city for golf. Lots of good places.

Cleveland is actually a great city for golf. A very large quantity of decent, affordable golf.

[Carl Rogers]

Memphis has Memphis CC, probably an average to middling Ross ... after that a wasteland.

[Tommy Williamsen]

What I have learned the most from this thread is that we are a bunch of spoiled golfers.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, Jakarta, Moscow, Vienna, Rome, Sao Paolo, etc. In fact, pretty much every major city outside of North America and the UK.

[Mac Plumart]

Question is what city doesn't have a great course?

Atlanta has Peachtree, which is world class, as Chris said. Maybe not a Top 25 World Course, but a Top 100 U.S. for sure.

Also, East Lake and Atlanta Athletic have a lot of history and are a draw for many golfers. They may not be architectural wonders for those who are passionate about design, but Atlanta has a few courses for those architecture geeks.

So, I'd say there is some good golf here. Regardless of your taste. Is it a place like Long Island, of course not. But it is not a golf wasteland.

[Sam Morrow]

Memphis has Memphis CC, probably an average to middling Ross ... after that a wasteland.

How is TPC Southwind? On TV it looks fun.

[Nigel Islam]

As an Atlantan I have never understood why golf, on average, is so "below average" here.  It would seem to me that the land could have produced some very interesting sites but again, Atlanta has little in terms of architectural interest.

To me it has a lot to do with when a city was developed/grew.
Most older cities have ODG courses that have the advantages of maturity, intimacy,less housing based (the bane of Atlanta) and well....good architecture


From all I hear Chris you've certainly bucked the trend in Atlanta

Hah.  Very kind of you to say.   


To my untrained eye I see Atlanta as nicely flowing land with countless locations full of mature, deciduous trees, creeks, streams, rolling land...


Too many courses here are simply real estate "lot enhancers" but even the core courses here don't compare to courses I have been  fortunate to play up North.  The entire scale and "feel" of golf up north just seems different.  I like pretty much everything else about my South, but for great golf courses we have to travel 

Chris,


Atlanta has a few courses going for it. Peachtree is one of the best in the world!

Nigel,


I too love Peachtree and it is my choice for best day of golf in Atlanta for sure.  The first hole is one of the best openers in golf.  The superintendent there is a friend of mine, William Shirley--he was at my club many years ago before he became famous    and his daughter Maragaret is the current US Mid-AM Women's champ. 


William has Peachtree has one of the finest conditioned courses I've ever played.  He has firm, fast bent and the zoysia fairway/bermuda rough contrast is simply awesome.


Anyway, while I love Peachtree I could not vote it one of the best "in the world" if by that you mean top 25 of all golf courses in the world.  The routing is excellent, it is a great walk in the park, the "experience" is near perfect, but there are too many similar blind, uphill shots for my taste.  Holes 8 and 9 parrot 17 and 18 a bit too much for me and are all part of that uphill, blind approach that I think is a tad overdone. 


Par threes are very good though 11 is a tad plain for my taste.
Par fives are OK.  #2 has a unique green, #5 is a bit awkward off the tee, #10 is fun but the approach is kind of bland.  #16 is very good.


Again--lots of uphill shots to greens that have a lot of "blindness":


#3, #5, #8, #9, #10, (even #11 a little), #16, #17 and #18


Don't get me wrong, Peachtree is awesome but despite my fondness for it, I just could not put it among the "best in the world" if all we are talking about are the golf holes.  As a golf club and taking the entire experience in toto, then yes, I would certainly vote it "world class" 

Chris I certainly agree it's not top 25, but I feel it is a legitimate top 150 world, and you can make a good argument for top 100. I think I just was using a much broader definition of the word "best" 

[Duncan Cheslett]

I just had a look at this question from a British point of view, and I can only find a few cities which DO have a great golf course, as defined by the Top !00 golf courses website

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/gbi.asp

Aberdeen - Royal Aberdeen
Birmingham - Little Aston
Leeds    -  Alwoodley & Moortown
London   -   The Addington



No other major city in Great Britain has a 'great' golf course.  Even including The Addington as being in London is stretching things a little. Is Croydon part of London?

Great golf courses in Britain tend to be in the sticks or on the coast.

I guess the notion of a 'city' may be little different than it is in the USA. Widen the scope to include the outlying conurbation and Liverpool and Edinburgh would get on the list.

[BCrosby]

Chris -

I too have wondered why ATL does not have more great golf courses.

I think the reasons why are the same reasons other cities in the SE have so few great golf courses.

Note that cities like ATL, as with Phillie, NYC or Chicago, all have large populations of avid golfers, plenty of money to build good golf courses and good terrain. So what's the problem?

I think it is down to:

- turf. Common Bermuda was initially the only grass that survived the heat and humidity of SE summers. It is a coarse grass which many felt unsuited to greens. Thus P'hurst was using sand greens into the 1930's. Many other courses did as well. Others, like EL, dealt with the problem by using two greens (summer/winter). Not a state of affairs conducive to interesting, well designed greens.

- soils. Clay is hard to drain. The SE is not unique in having clay soils, but it compounded the turf problems.

- construction. Ross might do equally good drawings for a course in Athens, GA and a course in Rhode Island, but for a variety of reasons the crews that built courses in the SE had little (if any) experience with golf. That was less a problem in other parts of the US. There was little 'institutional' knowledge in the SE about gc construction in the 1920's.

- timing. Note that all these issues were being dealt with in the SE on the eve of and during the heyday of the Golden Age. While clubs in the NE were perfecting the art of designing and building golf courses, clubs in the SE were still struggling with basic infrastructure issues (see above).

- more on timing. By the time SE clubs had overcome turf and other problems, it was 1960 and we had just entered a long ugly Dark Age of golf course design. It was during that period, however, when most of the courses in the SE were built.

- Thus (a) the best courses in the SE (most built in the 1920's) were not as good as the best courses built elsewhere for the reasons noted above, and (b) the great explosion of new course construction in the 60's and 70's coincided, unfortunately, with a very unhappy era for golf architecture.

In short, Atlanta's problems were/are not unique to Atlanta. It was/is a regional thing.

Bob   

[Blake Conant]

Omaha struggles.  You could make a case for OCC.  If Happy Hollow got restored it would be pretty special.  Field Club is quirky but not great.  Had another cool old course called Ironwood (formerly Highlands CC) that was sold and turned into a mixed use development. Similar to Happy, could've been restored and been pretty special.

[John McCarthy]

Lagos?

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Off the top of my head, Reno, San Diego, Miami, Boise, Albuquerque, Kansas City?


I'll qualify it by a course listed in a Top 100 list if that helps. 


Major city meaning at least 200,000 and a major airport.

While Kansas City doesn't jump out with any Top 100s they have several really good courses by Golden Age architects. Most of their best is on the Kansas side and are listed in the best of Kansas, which can be a little misleading.

Kansas City Country Club and Indian Hills are both Tillinghast. I've only played KCCC, which is Tom Watson's home course, and surprised it isn't ranked higher. Milburn was the first Langford I had ever seen, and not knowing squat about GCA at the time I came away very impressed.

Their biggest strength may be on the public side, where their publics are better than here on the St. Louis side of the state. Swope Memorial is another Tillinghast that was renovated prior to the Girls Junior Am which was won by Michelle Wie when she was still a phenom. Tilly must have been quite active in Kansas City at that time (30s), when it was a boomtown at the height of the Jazz era.

They also have the only Donald Ross in Missouri, a former private club by the name of Hillcrest and now open to the public. Throw in a few Hurdzan Frys,  Norman, and a few good ones like Shoal Creek by local designers and the choices are pretty good.

Since their best privates are older, shorter courses incapable of hosting a top amateur or PGA event, KC stays off the national radar I believe.

[cary lichtenstein]

As an Atlantan I have never understood why golf, on average, is so "below average" here.  It would seem to me that the land could have produced some very interesting sites but again, Atlanta has little in terms of architectural interest.

what about Peachtree?

[Carl Rogers]

Memphis has Memphis CC, probably an average to middling Ross ... after that a wasteland.

How is TPC Southwind? On TV it looks fun.

I was thinking about the city and close surrounds.

[Carl Rogers]

What I have learned the most from this thread is that we are a bunch of spoiled golfers.

Tommy, you are probably right
I grew up in Memphis ... if the golf wasn't basic & cheap, I never would have had the means to ever start or continue with the game.


Tidewater VA, where I live, probably does not have any great courses.   But the area has some better than OK courses that are reasonably priced.  Cypress Creek, Nansemond River, Hell's Point (though a bit long in the tooth now), Sleepy Hole


I argumentatively speculate about a few of the others:
-Bayville, a very private Fazio in VA Beach, has hosted a USGA Women's or Women's NCAA event (forgot which) ... gets marks for conditioning.  No way for me to play there.
-Cavalier is a par 69 Raynor-Banks course that I think Lester George has done some work on.  Haven't figured out how to play there.
-Kinloch in Richmond, a very private Lester George course, gets I guess, the best in state award.  No way for me to play there.
-Cascades, played twice, along way for me, but worth it every other year.
-Royal New Kent, like all Strantz courses, is a wild hoot, but Tobacco Road is better.
-Golden Horseshoe, yes an old RTJ, that I know I am not supposed to like, but I do anyway.
-Sewell's Point, on the Norfolk Naval Base, (some say it is a Flynn, the sign on the entrance says it is a Ross.  It is better than the typical Muni .... probably the best bang for the buck in the Tidewater Area.
-James River CC over in Newport News (know nothing about it)
-Bay Creek 1 AP & 1 JN course, across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, played once, not excited to go back unless some kind of freebee special.
-Greenbrier, Rees Jones 80's (nuf said)


By 100% accident, I live 10 minutes from Riverfront, an early unpricey Doak ... and for the last 12 years, I have at some level been spoiled.  There is no point in me going to any other course  in the area.  If I want a special experience, then its a 4+ hour effort to go the NC Sandhills or Ballyhack or the Cascades or a 1 hour effort to go to Williamsburg.

[Jason Thurman]

What I have learned the most from this thread is that we are a bunch of spoiled golfers.

I've learned that we're not any better at defining what constitutes a "major city" than we are at defining what constitutes a "great golf course"

[Wayne_Kozun]

What I have learned the most from this thread is that we are a bunch of spoiled golfers.

I've learned that we're not any better at defining what constitutes a "major city" than we are at defining what constitutes a "great golf course"

Exactly - no offense Carl but Tidewater is a major city???

[Carl Nichols]

There are a lot more people and companies in the Tidewater area (Norfolk/Newport News/Hampton/Virginia Beach) than in many other cities mentioned in this thread.

[Sam Morrow]

Memphis has Memphis CC, probably an average to middling Ross ... after that a wasteland.

How is TPC Southwind? On TV it looks fun.

I was thinking about the city and close surrounds.

That wasn't my question.

[Brad Treadwell]

Seattle, at least in the local courses current architectural state. 

[Brian Ross]

Pretty much all of the major Texas cities could go on this list. Austin (11th largest city) for sure. The best course in Austin (AGC) is 45 minutes away and isn't even in Travis County.

San Antonio (7th) has some decent golf but nothing out of the way impressive.

Dallas has some good tracks both classic and modern, but nothing befitting the 9th largest city in the country. Houston (4th) may be the worst of the bunch.

[Carl Rogers]

Exactly - no offense Carl but Tidewater is a major city???

None taken, when you add up all the various cities, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Portsmouth, Suffolk, Hampton, Newport News, it is a major metropolitan population