[Peter Pallotta]

Sounds like a heck of a golf course. It makes me wonder: if Der Bingle held the clambake there instead of at Pebble, would it be Pasatiempo on everyone's bucket list? 

I'm very glad you're enjoying your west coast swing, Patrick. In a few months, I look forward to your southern tour -- and to your insistence that Seminole is not flat!

Peter

[David_Elvins]

Is the 11th one of those holes that is so difficult that it becomes easier?  The risk reward scenario is so out of balance that there is not much incentive to take on any risk?  And there are safe ways to play the hole.  The fairway is wide off the tee and the front of the green has a lot of space around it.

I just don't see there ever being any temptation to got at a pin if slightly out of position with the tee shot. 


If you are coming into that green from 170 or from the right side of the fairway, surely you are aiming at the front edge of the green every time?  And that is not a terribly difficult shot to hit. 


No doubt it s a difficult hole to birdie, but I don't think it is a difficult hole to play in 4 or 5 shots if that is your aim. 

[Josh Tarble]

Pat,
When I said "hit it straight" I was referring to the tee ball.  It's a very wide fairway and truthfully, not much incentive to take on the barranca.  Now, the second shot is not easy, especially trying to get after a back pin, but the second shot at 16 is no bargain either.


The other thing working for it, is that the miss with a hanging lie is a pull/hook - keeping the ball out of the hazard.  Certainly 11 is not easy, but it is relatively straightforward to play for your 5 whereas 16 can be a big number very quickly.

[Kalen Braley]

Makes one wonder.
 
With the original height of the trees being negligible....was the good Drs original intent on #11 for it to be a split fairway hole?
 
P.S.  I would love to watch todays pros and their massive length off the tee play this hole. I wonder how many would take a left of the barranca route...

[Matt_Cohn]

I hate to agree with Pat. But yes, probably. I can't think of a harder one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Makes one wonder.
 
With the original height of the trees being negligible....was the good Drs original intent on #11 for it to be a split fairway hole?
 
Kalen,

I think that's a good question.

It also presents the same question, to a lesser degree, on # 12

P.S.  I would love to watch todays pros and their massive length off the tee play this hole. I wonder how many would take a left of the barranca route...

[Bill_McBride]

Makes one wonder.
 
With the original height of the trees being negligible....was the good Drs original intent on #11 for it to be a split fairway hole?
 
Kalen,

I think that's a good question.

It also presents the same question, to a lesser degree, on # 12

P.S.  I would love to watch todays pros and their massive length off the tee play this hole. I wonder how many would take a left of the barranca route...

There would never be a good reason to drive from the 12th tee into the 11th fairway.  There would be absolutely no shot to the 12th green which sits back at an angle best approached from the right side of the 12th fairway. 

[John Cowden]

Since the barranca between 11 and 12 plays as a lateral hazard, which I'll readily admit to having ocassionally found with my tee shot on each hole, one can drop on the other side of the hazard when taking your penalty.  The hazrd stakes are even marked so as to identify the proper corresponding position on the other side.  Thus I've sometimes played my third shot to 12 green from well up the 11th fairway.  It's fun to try, to say you did it, but it's a terrible angle to come in to 12 from.  The similar third (penalty) shot on 11 is not at all bad, just long and uphill, when your drive on 11 finds the barranca.  Then again, I've played more than one second shot to 11 from the bottom of the barranca when the gods blessed me with a good lie. 

[Keith OHalloran]

...and that's how Bobby Jones' played up the 12th fairway to the 11th green on Opening Day, 1929, when the trees in the barranca between 11 and 12 were 4 feet high.

Pat,
I have never played Pasatiempo, but have always thought the 10th at Shinnecock was the toughest I played.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Keith,


The 11th at Pasatiempo is much harder.


What most seem to forget when comparing # 11 to # 16 is the distance, size and angle of the respective greens as you hit your approach.


# 16 is massive.
# 11 is a sliver


# 16 is head on
# 11 is angled


# 16 is a shorter approach to a green at about the same elevation
# 11 is a longer approach to a green elevated considerably above you


And, chances are that you'll have a more awkward lie on # 11

[John Cowden]

Agree with your 11th v. 16th comparison.  Assuming a decent drive on each, the second shot on 16 is indeed easier.  I consider a par on 11 worth more than a par on 16 (and their respective stroke values were recently changed by the Club to reflect this), although a 4 on either are cause for celebration.  Tiger four-putted 16, including one off the green, in his last collegiate tourney when Oberholser beat him by a stroke. 

[David_Elvins]

If I had to make 4 for my life, I would rather be playing 16.  If I had to make 5 I would rather be playing 11.

16 brings big numbers in to play in a way that 11 doesn't.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If I had to make 4 for my life, I would rather be playing 16.  If I had to make 5 I would rather be playing 11.

16 brings big numbers in to play in a way that 11 doesn't.


David,

How so ?

Should a golfer hit his 2nd or 3rd into the left green side bunker on # 11, I can see huge numbers should he blade that bunker shot

[Brian Colbert]

#11 at Pasatiempo is certainly one of the hardest (and definitely harder than #16), but I'd say #10 at Butler National is THE hardest under 400 that I've ever played.

To be fair, #10 at Butler National is 450 from the back tees. But yes, that hole is hard.

[Will Lozier]

If I had to make 4 for my life, I would rather be playing 16.  If I had to make 5 I would rather be playing 11.

16 brings big numbers in to play in a way that 11 doesn't.

Agree with Josh, David, and others....11 is the arguably easier than 16, especially when played conservatively.


Overall:
Tee Shot: I think the tee ball on 16 is much tougher with big trouble on both sides and the hog's back helping balls to both edges - barranca & OOB.

Approach: 11 has the edge in difficulty here in terms of just hitting the green...but, getting it close (to any pin) I'd say is a tougher task at 16.

Green: The much larger green at the 16th makes a three putt more likely for most pins, particularly since it is tough to get past anything but a front pin on 11 - if you do, yes trouble awaits.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

You and the others are forgetting something.

It's easier to hit a big green with a 5/6 iron than it is to hit a narrow, well protected green with a 3-wood off of an awkward lie.

I'll bet anyone on parring 11 vs 16.

The approach into # 16 is to a huge green.
The margins are enormous, and the lie from the fairway, benign.
The challenge is primarily to be on the same tier, or one tier lower than the hole.

On # 11, it's a longer approach shot, uphill, over a deep barranca, to a narrow, steeply sloped green, with pure disaster right of the green, versus a huge catch bunker on # 16.

Both great holes, but, I'll make par at about a 10-1 clip at # 16 vs # 11.

By the way, holes #  1, 2, 3, 5, 10 and 17 are very challenging as well.

But, I find # 11 the most difficult of all of them.
It' harder to make par and it's easier to make 6+

[John McCarthy]

#11 at Pasatiempo is certainly one of the hardest (and definitely harder than #16), but I'd say #10 at Butler National is THE hardest under 400 that I've ever played.

To be fair, #10 at Butler National is 450 from the back tees. But yes, that hole is hard.

The very first hole on a real course I played was 10 at Butler.  I lost three balls and dropped on the other side of the creek. 

I played that hole probably almost 100 times, most if them from the senior tees. I have never had a par. 

I have not played Pasatiempo.  But 10 at Butler has my number.

[Will Lozier]

Will,

You and the others are forgetting something.

It's easier to hit a big green with a 5/6 iron than it is to hit a narrow, well protected green with a 3-wood off of an awkward lie.

I'll bet anyone on parring 11 vs 16.

The approach into # 16 is to a huge green.
The margins are enormous, and the lie from the fairway, benign.
The challenge is primarily to be on the same tier, or one tier lower than the hole.

On # 11, it's a longer approach shot, uphill, over a deep barranca, to a narrow, steeply sloped green, with pure disaster right of the green, versus a huge catch bunker on # 16.

Both great holes, but, I'll make par at about a 10-1 clip at # 16 vs # 11.

By the way, holes #  1, 2, 3, 5, 10 and 17 are very challenging as well.

But, I find # 11 the most difficult of all of them.
It' harder to make par and it's easier to make 6+

Pat,


You are betting on everyone having 175+ yards in on #11? I parred both holes in my one go round - Driver/6i on #11 and 4i/7i on #16. I crept onto the front left edge on #11 (where there is plenty of room to strategically bail) and two putted to a middle right pin. The 4i scooted just into the right rough off the hogs back and guessed right on a flyer lie from about 165 to a back back left pin - had a 12' putt from the back fringe. I agree with you that it is a tough hole, I simply didn't find it to play as long as you suggest.


For me, #2-5 is the best stretch on the front while the entire back nine (-#17) is superb.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What I love about Pasatiempo is the uniqueness of each hole, each challenge.
 
As par 4's, 1, 2, 4, 7, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16 and 17 are nothing like one another.
Each presents a unique challenge.
 
As uphill as # 11 is, # 2 is straight down hill, but, usually into a good breeze.
 
The par 3's are all unique, 3, 5, 8, 15 and 18.
 
With only two par 5's, both 6 and 13 are radically different.
 
If you're in San Francisco or heading to Monterey, don't miss Pasatiempo.

[Mark Provenzano]

What I love about Pasatiempo is the uniqueness of each hole, each challenge.
 
As par 4's, 1, 2, 4, 7, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16 and 17 are nothing like one another.
Each presents a unique challenge.
 
As uphill as # 11 is, # 2 is straight down hill, but, usually into a good breeze.
 
The par 3's are all unique, 3, 5, 8, 15 and 18.
 
With only two par 5's, both 6 and 13 are radically different.
 
If you're in San Francisco or heading to Monterey, don't miss Pasatiempo.

9 is a par 5 as well, to me the most difficult of the three, unless they've used one of the tougher pin positions on 13.

[John Cowden]

9 may be the most underrated green on the course in terms of subtle difficulty.  You won't likely consider it such until your third or fourth three putt. 

[Pete Lavallee]

It's truly puzzling why Passtiempo isn't rated higher? Perhaps it's lack of exclusivity is a factor. The club incorporated after the Depression and needs the income from outside play. Another factor could be the overall length of 6500, but it's the longest 6500 yard course I've ever played. Any rather who's played it will certainly agree it's no pushover from the blues.

Also 17 has a great green just ask Shivas how hard that green is!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

Yes, it's 6,500 yards, but, it's a par 70, so it plays longer than the card.

I'm also puzzled by it's ranking.

As to # 17, I always wanted to play that hole when the pin was cut in the back of the green.
What a frightening shot, not unlike # 1 at PV.

I got my wish recently.
I hit what I thought was a great shot into the green, came up short of the hole and three putted from 40 feet over that ridge separating the left and right side of the green.

# 17 seems benign, but, with a back hole location, it's very challenging.

[Ben Sims]

Pat,

No, I don't think so. I've only played Pasatiempo twice, but I can remember distinctly how easily (for a poor golfer like myself) one par and one bogey were achieved. As John Kirk mentioned, it's a driver-mid iron hole for the average length player. And not unlike many difficult par 4's, two well struck shots get you in the ballpark. Like most Mackenzie courses, a deft touch gets down in two after that.

Where the 11th separates itself is the visual difficulty of the second shot, and the slope of the green surface. These two features account for up to a half shot difference in difficulty in my mind.

I can think of one other Mackenzie hole that is under 400 yds and is as difficult, the 13th at Palmetto Golf Club. Like the 13th at Pasa, it is severely uphill. Also like Pasa, the left side of the hole is restricted. Where it separates itself from Pasa is the small cross bunker on the left side of the fairway which is in the most prime area from which to approach. Any shot up the left side of the fairway will have to stop short of that bunker. The fairway itself is cambered left-to-right, which causes all but the most well struck drives to trundle towards the right side of the fairway, forcing approaches from a poorer angle. This fairway camber also increases approach difficulty by causing an awkward uphill stance with the ball below your feet. The green is situated on the top of the ridge that also houses the 3rd green, 4th tee, and 14th tee. It is a pushup green with sharp fall-offs on all sides. It is also guarded front right by one of the most fearsome bunkers on the golf courses. It is a hit-the-green-or-else approach. The only saving grace in this competition of difficulty is that the Palmetto green is much easier on which to putt.

[Keith Doleshel]

I think #11 is a considerably more difficult hole than #16.  A good tee shot on #16 can give a player a short iron into the green without the change in elevation found on #11.  I also agree with some that #11 can be a relatively easy bogey if one wanted to keep a big number off the card.  Even though I made a big number on #16 occasionally, I always felt that I had a better chance at making a birdie or par on #16 than on #11.

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